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Can someone explain this statement? "shoot the first ten you see"

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Can someone explain this statement? "shoot the first ten you see" Empty Can someone explain this statement? "shoot the first ten you see"

Post by mspingeld 12/8/2020, 8:46 pm

I've seen this quote on the forum more than once but I'm not clear.

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Post by Wobbley 12/8/2020, 9:29 pm

As the gun settles in to its “wobble area”. There will be a sight picture where you know that if you break the shot then it will be a ten.  The first time you see a picture like that the gun should go off without jerking the trigger.  Just a smooth quick trigger release.  More often than not it will be a 10 often an X.  Don’t wait to “just dress it up” because you’re now behind the gun.  Your hold is only good for a very few seconds.  So don’t dawdle.

Easier said than done.
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Post by john bickar 12/8/2020, 9:55 pm

Wobbley explained it better in the context of one-handed pistol shooting than I've ever seen it explained.

I have largely heard this phrase in the context of rifle shooting and am not a fan. In my experience, most rifle shooters have worse trigger control compared to pistol shooters, and phrases like this contribute to that deficit.

Not trying to cast aspersions on anyone or other disciplines.
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Post by WesG 12/8/2020, 10:55 pm

As one of those 'rifle shooters', I'll say I can usually (or sometimes at least) do better offhand if it's a bit windy or I'm a bit shakier than I'd like by snatching at the trigger. But a smooth squeeze usually gets a better score if I'm at all steady. And it's sometimes hard to figure out what the best technique is until the last few shots ;-)

At the other extreme. In a solid prone position, an overly deliberate slow smooth squeeze will usually keep shots much better in elevation than a quick smooth pull through when the gun settles. I think it's just harder to avoid 'accidently' jerking the trigger in that case.

And all that applied to a pistol ... well ...

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Post by john bickar 12/8/2020, 11:17 pm

I knew there was going to be an exception when I said I wasn't trying to cast aspersions on anyone. Didn't realize he would show up so soon Laughing
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Post by WesG 12/8/2020, 11:22 pm

You're correct though, in my case for sure. My trigger control with a pistol is TERRIBLE. Bad habits I've gotten away with for way too long with a rifle.

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Post by CR10X 12/9/2020, 6:55 am

Everyone has ways of saying things to try and communicate what they do to achieve the desired outcome more consistently.  

And since I tend to use this quote (a lot), here's my opinion / perspective.  

We have a wobble.  We should know what our wobble looks like as we acquire the target and continue to hold in our aiming area.  The wobble will (generally) very quickly get a little better and then start getting larger.  

To increase the probability of getting the highest value shot within our ability; we should learn how to complete the trigger process as we become aware (see) our wobble approaching its best area early in our shot process.

From my perspective, that's the "first 10 you see".   To elaborate further:

Notice I did not say anything about "being still", "seeing the dot over the x". If you are using a 6:00 hold, sub-6 hold or center hold with open sights, its not about being "still" or aligning the front sight with that particular point on the target either.  

What is important with open sights is the alignment of the sights (front and rear) to be maintained.  And similarly, that also translates (somewhat) to the dot maintaining its apparent position in relation to the tube.  Doesn't have to be the exact center, but the same location and not bouncing around within the tube.  This tells us that the gun is being kept in alignment and not yawing about as the trigger is operated with the shooter manipulating the gun to get the dot back to where its wanted. (Again, the vain search for "stillness" or a "point".)  

It is about seeing the minimum wobble (pattern) and completing the trigger without messing up the alignment of the gun (regardless of its "exact" point of aim) but with the best area of aim.   Therefore the mental note / saying of "shoot the first 10 you see" within our wobble pattern.  This applies for a dot or aligned front and rear sights. 

 And this also tends to train one to complete the shot process and reduce the "chicken finger" condition.   

That's the "first 10 you see" in my mind.  Once the wobble starts getting larger and with more variance, then we're just attempting to pick off our shots, resulting in trigger issues, compensating with grip, wrist, etc., etc.

And my interpretation, from the context of the original quote (which came from a very good rifle shooter), was that if one completed the trigger as the sight picture "approaching" the "first 10 you see", it would have a higher potential to actually be an X.  

CR


Last edited by CR10X on 12/9/2020, 7:00 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : still can't type for carp - and there are so many thoughts and ideas wrapped up in that simple quote.)

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Post by GrumpyOldMan 12/12/2020, 12:11 am

An observation more from the standing position in my time in smallbore rifle than from the Service Rifle I took up shortly thereafter:

At some point of fairly regular dry fire and purposeful practice, the wobble area gets much smaller and lasts a bit longer. And becomes fairly predictable as the whole body system comes under your conscious but wordless control.

Then with the experience of getting better at calling your shots in that wobble area, the front sight focus lets the trigger finger sort of "auto-pilot" itself into tripping the trigger when you see everything settle into a good shot.

The longer you take to get there, the less likely you'll ever get there. So if you don't see the first 10 soon enough, or the second 10 does not quickly come into view, put it down and start over.

Never got that good, but I did manage a 95 once in a while with the .22 and also with the .308. On the NRA targets. The international 50-foot target was harder. Highest was a 91 or 92 at least twice IIRC, with a gratifying number of pinwheels. More often, that booger had me at 85 to 88. That pinhole size 10-ring was tough from any position.

And if you can't call them as weak, mid-ring, or strong 10s at whatever clock position at least half the time, your ammo, gun, you, or all three need work. Brian Enos calls it something like seeing what you need to see to get the hit you want.

Just another perspective on what's posted above by far better BE shooters than I am: get on with it. Don't fiddle away that first 10. Take it.

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Post by Oleg G 12/12/2020, 1:27 pm

Well, a picture is worth a thousand words.

I will try to illustrate the benefits of shooting the first 10 you see. I am posting two SCATT traces. These are from my recent training sessions where I was simulating an ISSF Sports Pistol target to make the training more challenging with the smaller 10 ring. 
The first one is of a good shot where I did not hold for too long and completed the trigger press while the wobble was on the decrease. The second trace is a great illustration of what happens when you try to save a shot for far too long.

Look at the first SCATT trace below. While you cannot see it in motion, you can discern that wobble is settling into the 10 ring, even into the X-ring (the green line inside the ball of string). The trigger press is already in progress. The yellow line shows the wobble during the last second before the shot breaks and the red line is the follow-through. You can clearly see that I did not spend too much time dressing up the shot but calmly and confidently completed my shot process with a decent follow-through. Look closely and you will see a small magenta circile in the center of the target - this is where SCATT marked the landing spot of the shot. It is important that the point of impact is right in the middle of the wobble area - another indicator of a well-executed shot.

Can someone explain this statement? "shoot the first ten you see" Scatt_10


The next trace shows my wobble decreasing but I am not focused enough to complete the shot in time and instead of heeding the warning indicators, I am trying to save this shot, rather than putting the gun down and restarting the shot. The size of the ball of string tells the story - it is clear that I spent much more time attempting this shot than the first one - time that would have been much better spent by resting the gun on the table and preparing for the next good shot. Again, you cannot see the trace in motion but the rather large wobble seen in the yellow line tells the story: I was fighting my hold and my trigger press well past the optimal time to complete the shot. The wobble are kept increasing (green line becoming the yellow line), and the shot landed well outside the optimal hold area. You can see that I did not really jerk the trigger - I just held the pistol up for far too long. The point of impact is on the fringe of the wobble, rather than in the center - another indicator of a poor shot. My follow-through was terrible - I called the shot at 2 o'clock in the 9-ring and became frustrated, hence ruining my follow-through and adding insult to injury.

Can someone explain this statement? "shoot the first ten you see" Scatt_11


You can clearly see that in the second trace I had multiple 10s that I could have shot (time spent by the green line insire the 10-ring and the X-ring) but I squandered them all away a shot a 9 instead.

Please consider that I did not post the bad shot for anybody to study what a bad shot looks like - we don't want to focus on this at all. However, I thought that these two SCATT traces provide a very good illustration of the benefits of shooting the 1st 10 you see. In other words - completing a shot with aligned sights (dot), using a smooth trigger operation and, importantly, within the time that for you, produces a wobble area that is close to optimal.

I think that these pictures and my explanation confirms what Cecil wrote - as usual, he did it much more eloquently than I can.

Best Regards,
Oleg.
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Post by DA/SA 12/12/2020, 2:49 pm

Geez Oleg,

That first target is amazing!

My wobble/hold covers the entire black on a B-8!
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Post by Oleg G 12/12/2020, 2:57 pm

Well, I am convinced that SCATT is flattering me. I do beleive that I can hold the 9-ring on B-2; B-16 and B-6 targets. With live fire, for me, any slow fire shots, whiich land outsiide the 9 ring are the result of an errror in the shot process, not the hold problems. 
I don't use SCATT to shoot for score - it is a great training aid to determine where your shot process needs fine-tuning. Also, when you are changing something in the shot process, SCATT can show you what is working well.
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Post by CR10X 12/12/2020, 2:58 pm

Wobbly said it in less words, you created the great pictures. I'm just along for the ride.

CR

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Post by Wobbley 12/12/2020, 4:06 pm

Cecil: I’ll take that as a compliment!
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Post by bruce martindale 12/12/2020, 8:03 pm

I don't think it's within control for most people. For HM shooters,  yeah but that's a different planet. Shooting the 10 you see is in the past, you can't react without a disturbance.

Release the shot within your wobble, let it happen, don't MAKE it happen. I know I keep doing the latter somewhere in my strings and it never works out.

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Post by Schaumannk 12/12/2020, 11:45 pm

I agree with Bruce.   If you “see” the ten, you are past it.  I also have recently acquired a SCATT which I love, especially in these primer shortage times.   My hold is less good than Oleg’s as well but smooth quick triggering will keep the shots in the black.  Staring at the sights, and moving my wrist to align them, will not...  :-)  
As I suspected, my wobble area is bigger when I stiff arm the gun, and I get better results when I don’t as long as I don’t overstay my hold.   
Lots of feedback without burning any of that expensive ammo is starting to pay off.   I train mostly with my service pistol.   If you can pull the four pounder straight back quickly and smoothly, your groups will really tighten up on the lighter triggers.

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Post by CR10X 12/13/2020, 9:41 am

I think people focus too much on the "10" part. The "10" is just a concept to get the shooter to quit futzing around with "perfect" and complete the trigger as things  are getting better The control part is in the trigger to complete it as the wobble gets smaller, the wobble is accepted to the point where it goes from getting smaller to getting bigger and then time up.

If we see the wobble getting smaller, then the probability of getting a shot better than our average goes way up.

Most shooter's wobble is better than they think anyway, if the gun is kept in the proper orientation.  Shoot groups off a bench and see how far off the mythical center we can be and still get a 9 or better. (And it ain't the nines that get you at the long line....) 

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Post by bruce martindale 12/13/2020, 1:25 pm

Yes CR, in this game good enuf absolutely trumps perfect. This enlightened me years ago, that and the AMU head camera view of a RF string at 25 yards.

This is todays Rika trace, release within the wobble. Not perfect but good enough.

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Post by bruce martindale 12/13/2020, 1:51 pm

Can someone explain this statement? "shoot the first ten you see" Img_0810

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Post by bruce martindale 12/13/2020, 1:53 pm

You can see ( in blue) that l pushed it, and after the shot, it snapped back to center. Purple

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