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Flinching ?

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Post by thessler 12/21/2020, 5:26 am

Hi
I have recently started practice with the 45, my targets look terrible and I'm trying to work out more than one issue. I boosted the load a little and that controlled some of the unexplained shots. I think my biggest issue now is I think I'm flinching. I dry fire way more than live fire and most of my dry fire the dot jumps down or down and left at the fall of the hammer, left handed shooting.  I can't seem to stop this. Next major problem is almost every time I pull the trigger on a live round I close my eyes,  so calling the shot is almost non existent . Even though I  know it's going to happen in do it anyway can't seem to prevent it . Before I pull the trigger I tell myself keep your eyes open, call the shot, look for the follow through . Then bang both eyes closed.  I am really good about ear protection,  quality ear plugs properly seated and quality ear muffs on the outside with a good seal. Plus I'm half deaf, so I don't think it's a noise issue. 
I am hesitant to shoot today because I'm afraid to make this worse if that's possible. 
Thank you for any advice, Tom

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Post by james r chapman 12/21/2020, 5:33 am

Maybe working with just a .22 would help.
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Post by chiz1180 12/21/2020, 6:02 am

Ball and Dummy drills
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Post by CR10X 12/21/2020, 6:59 am

Are you thinking about the shot going off and /or anticipating the recoil or are you seeing (and mentally focusing) on the wobble pattern / front sight / dot?

If you are thinking about the shot, then you are preparing to flinch.  

If you truly focus on something besides the trigger; the tendency to flinch will be reduced.

If you are "trying" to get the shot to go off, the tendency to flinch will be increased.

CR

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Post by thessler 12/21/2020, 7:17 am

I am doing everything wrong and I know it. 
When I  dry fire everything is fine, as soon as I know there is a live round ready I start preparing for it. Not that I can help that, it just happens.  I am definitely trying to get  the shot off, almost every time I have a live round I can't get the shot off and have to put the gun down and start over. I don't have to do that with dry fire.
I really don't want to go back to  22, my scores are pretty good with that and 45 season is coming up.  I need to learn this.
Ball and dummy might not be effective , I shoot by myself so I would be loading the dummy and by nature will no where it is.
Thanks for the replys , Tom

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Post by CR10X 12/21/2020, 7:29 am

Well, let's think about what to do to distract one from what not to do.

I'd suggest that if you have one, take your double action revolver and dryfire with it, double action (with and without target).  Get the mind prepared to complete a fairly heavy trigger pull all the way through without hesitation (while watching only the front sight). 

What we're trying to do here is separate that pesky trigger finger from any conscious participation by the mind and helping the mind to focus on the sight picture.  We're sending the trigger finger to gym to work out every day.  He's going to get strong and learn how to work on his own, without you doing anything but telling him to start (when you acquire the sight picture / wobble area you like.)  Not a snap, not a long stop and go pressure, but a smooth, even and complete trigger operation all the way to and past the trigger stop. And we're learning how to NOT pick off the shot or snap the trigger, but keep in under control since the trigger pull is so much greater than the standard .45 trigger. 

And we're also building up our grip strength.  You can't shoot double action with some whimpy, 22 grip pressure.  You have to learn how to actually hold the gun, just like with the .45.

And the commitment to getting the double action trigger all the way through will (hopefully) translate to more commitment and consistency in your .45 trigger (3.5 lbs versue 2 lb .22) 

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Post by David R 12/21/2020, 7:31 am

Squeeze the trigger slowly and it goes off when it goes off.
Deal with the recoil after the shot goes off.

The Idea is to squeeze the trigger so you do not know when its going to fire.   Just keep increasing pressure on the trigger. 

Don't worry, I do it too, even after 30 years of shooting, some times my target looks awful because I jerked the trigger.   I can see the dot make a figure 8 or something before the shot goes off.

Keep at it.    The 22 will help.  After shooting the 45, the 22 will seem like a pop gun.  

David
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Post by Schaumannk 12/21/2020, 8:49 am

One of the things that might help is getting a 22 conversion unit and putting it on your ball gun  Get some confidence in your hold and your triggering before you go back to live fire with the .45.

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Post by Lightfoot 12/21/2020, 9:28 am

My thought it that you have to focus on something else so intently that your body forgets to react.  Burn the front sight into your retina!  or the dot or the X whatever.  You have to be thinking about the one thing.  You can't focus on not flinching.  That will make you flinch.    Yesterday I had a high primer in slow fire so it just clicked.  The gun didn't move.  I was focused.
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Post by Oleg G 12/21/2020, 9:34 am

Tom,

You said in your first post:

"most of my dry fire the dot jumps down or down and left at the fall of the hammer, left handed shooting."

I think this indicates a grip problem. With the heavier trigger, you have to have a harder grip. It sounds like you are tightening your grip unconsciously at the end of the trigger press. So, first, grip the pistol tighter, execute an UNINTERRUPTED trigger press with a good follow-through, AND do this while focusing on your dot on the blank wall. Switch to the target ONLY after you are able to keep the dot aligned in the center of the tube during and after the completion of the trigger press.

For live firing, do the same and train with the blank target.

For your dry fire and live training focus on establishing a firm grip as you pick up the pistol and then focus on your dot to the exclusion of everything else. Examine your dot - its shape, brightness, any imperfection in roundness, etc. Stay completely focused on the dot while you are pulling the trigger. Again, start with a blank wall / target. If you are fully focused on your sight alignment / dot, you will not have any attention left for the bang and the flash. Smile

Also, are you following your shot process? Develop keywords for the main part of your shot process to help you form the correct dynamic mental picture of the shot, and either repeat them for each shot, or record them and play them back during each shot.

P.S. Steve and I wrote about essentially the same thing, only he used much fewer words! Smile

Regards,
Oleg.
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Post by thessler 12/21/2020, 12:04 pm

Thanks guys 
Alot of what was said makes sense to me. I am definitely focusing on the upcoming bang. I have a lot of work to do and new material to do it with.
I was worried I was going to have to stop and give it time to pass, now I feel just the opposite keep at it hard just work on more appropriate things. 
Thanks  Tom

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Post by mspingeld 12/21/2020, 12:23 pm

Flinching  ? Captur10

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Post by VNK971 12/21/2020, 1:02 pm

thessler wrote:
Ball and dummy might not be effective , I shoot by myself so I would be loading the dummy and by nature will no where it is.
Get a small cloth bag. Put one or two dummy rounds and five or seven live rounds, however many you load in your magazine, in the bag. Load your magazine without looking at it. You won't know when, or if, the dummy round is coming up.

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Post by Lightfoot 12/21/2020, 4:08 pm

thessler wrote:Thanks guys 
Alot of what was said makes sense to me. I am definitely focusing on the upcoming bang. I have a lot of work to do and new material to do it with.
I was worried I was going to have to stop and give it time to pass, now I feel just the opposite keep at it hard just work on more appropriate things. 
Thanks  Tom
You need to be knee deep in brass, it won't pass without work.  I'll be happy to provide the projectiles. Smile Primers? Good luck!
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Post by chiz1180 12/21/2020, 4:45 pm

thessler wrote:Ball and dummy might not be effective , I shoot by myself so I would be loading the dummy and by nature will no where it is.

Load more than one magazine as "randomly" as possible then mix them up as best you can. Focus on shooting, not what shot the click will occur. A similar tactic would be to load one round, drop the mag shoot the first shot then dry fire the second. 

As far as anticipating the bang, do you wear ear plugs and muffs? I found that helped a ton, especially back when I was shooting 22 only next to someone shooting a 45.
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Post by Arthur 12/21/2020, 7:17 pm

chiz1180 wrote:
thessler wrote:Ball and dummy might not be effective , I shoot by myself so I would be loading the dummy and by nature will no where it is.

Load more than one magazine as "randomly" as possible then mix them up as best you can. Focus on shooting, not what shot the click will occur. A similar tactic would be to load one round, drop the mag shoot the first shot then dry fire the second. 

As far as anticipating the bang, do you wear ear plugs and muffs? I found that helped a ton, especially back when I was shooting 22 only next to someone shooting a 45.

Take 4 mags, load each with 5 live rounds and 1 or 2 dummy rounds randomly. Timed fire target. If the shot feels bad put the gun down and start over. Don't hesitate on the trigger. 
Plugs and muffs really helps. Out doors has lots less concussion than shooting indoors. More .22 than 45. 

This is what I'm doing and it is helping. 

Best,
Arthur

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Post by thessler 12/22/2020, 5:21 am

I went at it yesterday,  boosted  the 22 conversion trigger to 4.5 lbs the sight picture wasn't pretty while pulling but I keep them all in the black. This indicates it's probably not a strength problem,  but I will keep working with it as is untill the sight picture looks smooth. 
Today I plan to bring the 45 back and try to dissect the red dot with my eyeball while pulling. I'm starting to feel a lack of hard focus might be my problem.
Thanks for the help I'll keep at it, Tom

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Post by David R 12/22/2020, 7:43 am

If you have a dot, concentrate on the X.  Think only the X.      Forget the BANG and just focus on the x and SQUEEEEEZE  the trigger until it goes bang.   

I don't "Pull" the trigger, I squeeze, even in timed and rapid fire.   If I Yank, the shot goes out of the black.   

Deal with the recoil after the shot breaks, not before.

Good luck, keep at it.  

My wife has been shooting bullseye for 3 years.  Last night she shot a 99 7x in timed fire with a Browning Buckmark and a dot sight @ 25 yards.


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Post by TomH_pa 12/23/2020, 8:59 am

How is the trigger on your .45? An unfriendly trigger will really compound this issue. Jon E. says "3 1/2 lbs. does not always equal a good trigger"

To take the blank target back a step further....
I have also gone to the range and fired 5 or 10 shots into the berm  with the dot turned off just observing the rear of the gun. Concentrating on smooth continuous trigger squeeze.

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Post by farmboy 12/23/2020, 6:04 pm

I  taught two young sons years ago and have worked with several shooters through the years on flinching with large caliber guns and this is my process. 
1. Use dummy rounds and load 3 mags differently and mix then up a little so you don't  know how one      mag is loaded from the other.
2. Practice on a blank target /back side of a target( no bull, picture, character or silhouette) aiming for      the general center - important to focus on general center not a specific point.  A blank target               helps reduce some of the anticipation that builds up as your trying to hold on the center of target.
   It also helps reduce the stopping and starting the the trigger pull due to wobble going on and off the     center of the target.
3.Trigger pull focus is feeling the trigger all the way through an uninterrupted pull with sights on the         general center of the blank target
4. Use plugs and muffs both and with the highest ratings possible to reduce any flinch tendencies due        to sensory issues,
5. Tell yourself over and over how much fun it is to shoot a large caliber Wink
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Post by Outthere 12/24/2020, 6:09 am

CR10X wrote:Well, let's think about what to do to distract one from what not to do.

I'd suggest that if you have one, take your double action revolver and dryfire with it, double action (with and without target).  Get the mind prepared to complete a fairly heavy trigger pull all the way through without hesitation (while watching only the front sight). 

What we're trying to do here is separate that pesky trigger finger from any conscious participation by the mind and helping the mind to focus on the sight picture.  We're sending the trigger finger to gym to work out every day.  He's going to get strong and learn how to work on his own, without you doing anything but telling him to start (when you acquire the sight picture / wobble area you like.)  Not a snap, not a long stop and go pressure, but a smooth, even and complete trigger operation all the way to and past the trigger stop. And we're learning how to NOT pick off the shot or snap the trigger, but keep in under control since the trigger pull is so much greater than the standard .45 trigger. 

And we're also building up our grip strength.  You can't shoot double action with some whimpy, 22 grip pressure.  You have to learn how to actually hold the gun, just like with the .45.

And the commitment to getting the double action trigger all the way through will (hopefully) translate to more commitment and consistency in your .45 trigger (3.5 lbs versue 2 lb .22) 

CR
At the end of my training sessions, I try to shoot 50 rounds with one of my DA revolvers. I've thought it reinforces the "keep the trigger moving" aspect.
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Post by Soupy44 12/28/2020, 2:21 pm

I had a similar flinch when I started shooting 45.  Try shooting live fire just into the back-stop.  This will mimic your dry firing that you are confident in.  Once you can keep your eyes open, then use this to see what the gun is doing after it goes off.  This was a very educational experience for me.

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Post by Jack H 12/28/2020, 2:48 pm

Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals,.....
"....keep the sights aligned before, during and after the fall of the hammer"
 (Joe White, http://www.bullseyepistol.com/joewhite.htm )

The quote above is my favorite no flinch line.
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Post by thessler 12/29/2020, 3:31 am

Thanks for the replys. 
I laid off the 45 for a  while and just dry fired the 22 with a heavy trigger. Now if I dry fire the 45 the trigger seems pretty simple , we shall see . I have a pile of 45s that I plan on shooting today, just keep putting them through the gun and maybe get used to it.  
Last time I shot it i made a very hard effort to really concentrate on the sight and remind myself to make sure I follow through,  never saw the follow through my eyes were closed. 
I went out and bought a used 38 thought that might be a good intermediate gun to keep me in the game. It needs small primers . I know about the primer shortage but figured I dry fire so much now that I really don't need alot of primers. What I didn't see was the reloader shortage ! So that's on the shelf for a while. 
Thanks, Tom

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Post by SMBeyer 12/29/2020, 8:43 am

Here's how I got over closing eyes and snatching at the trigger, which to me is different from flinching.  Flinching from a shotgun point of view is refusal to pull trigger and it sounds like you are able to do that.


This may sound harsh but this is what I did.  Go to range.  Load one round and take your normal shooting position.  Shoot shot.  Put gun down.  Think about what you did and look at your hand.  Are you bleeding?  Is anything broke in your hand?  Did it hurt really bad?  If the answers are NO then I told myself "stop being such a wuss!, your fine".  I did this to convince myself that although the 45 recoils more than the 22 it was not gonna hurt me and I could handle it.

Eye closing problem:
What I did was open eyes as wide as I could and keep them that way through the shot.  Yes I know your gonna look silly but it taught me how to keep my eyes open consciously until I could get it to happen subconsciously.  

Snatching/flinching:
If you are practicing under range command time constraints stop until you can get the flinching under control.  Don't worry about the time.  Get good CONTROLLED shots off first then work on getting them to come faster and within the 10 or 20 seconds.

For me I shoot with my eyes focused on the dot and my mind completely focused on the trigger.  Feel everything about the trigger and move the finger to the rear of the gun uninterrupted till it goes bang.  This should be a smooth "quick" but not fast controlled squeeze.  Completely disregard the location of where the dot is on the target and move the trigger.  If your concerned with where the dot is over trigger squeeze you have the process backwards and are wanting the results before you put in the work to achieve said results.  Results (where the dot is when the gun goes off) is a byproduct of the execution of the shot (the smooth controlled trigger squeeze).
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