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Different way to shoot SF with RF timing

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robert84010
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Post by janrbrundin Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:37 am

I will give you a thought that works for me - may not work for you.  I practice only 10 second strings and do not practice slow fire.  My thought went like this.  When the gun is up and the sights are aligned, it looks the same regardless of how it got to that point.  Slow, timed and rapid all look the same as the gun is in its final  position to fire.  Sooo, I thought that the training I must use is sliding into that position and firing.  It takes a 2 sec max to fire every round in RF.  I decided to do the same timing for TF.  My TF scores dropped a few X's, but my RF score went up several points.  My use of the TF stage to fire RF timing had only one difference - I would pause a TF shot that the recovery went 'off', but I could not recover a RF shot and had to just finish it off.  
This worked for a whole season and I thought that I could apply that to SF as well.  I would bring the gun up from the bench, take it to the aiming point and use the RF timing the rest of the shot, recover, and fire a second shot within the 2 sec timing. I tried to shoot a whole string of SF that way and it did not work, but two shots worked very well.  Load the mag with 6 shots, fire 2, bench, fire 2, bench, fire 2, bench and reload with 4 bullets.
Continue 2 shots, bench, 2 shots and finish to the bench.  That turrned out to be 3-5 minutes for SF.  Shooting SF with each 2 shots going off within the 2 sec RF timing, also helped TF and RF.

Just some thoughts.  It worked for over 7 years and produced an average of 2621 over that time.


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Post by -TT- Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:47 pm

If you have a recovery issue after the first SF shot of the pair, do you attempt the second shot as you describe in TF? Or do you bench the gun and start over?

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Post by SteveT Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:27 pm

I agree, shoot TF at RF cadence but with a little higher standards to complete the shot in TF. I regularly take 2 shots, and occasionally 3 shots at TF/RF cadence in SF. If the sights recover back to the center, pull the trigger. If not, put the gun down.
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Post by Jon Eulette Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:51 pm

Tom Woods won National’s shooting like this. He trained for a year to prepare for Perry and won it this way. He shot SF like this ever after.....
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Post by janrbrundin Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:46 pm

-TT-
If I have time, I always correct in SF or TF.  I would decide for RF - a little more challenging.

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Post by -TT- Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:04 pm

Interesting, so you basically always commit to shooting two+. I've seen people doing slow that way, but never at that level.

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Post by bruce martindale Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:57 pm

So many people have better groups in Rapid than in slow but fail to recognize why. You nailed it.

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Post by Wes Lorenz Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:32 pm

-TT- wrote:Interesting, so you basically always commit to shooting two+. I've seen people doing slow that way, but never at that level
I too, discovered higher scores shooting like the OP and always commit to shooting two+. 
It contributes to great follow thru and more likely than not the 2nd & 3rd shots are an X.
Also works wonders in between wind gusts at Perry if you train for it.
Last year my Padawan observed me putting it down to fast and told this old fart to shape up! Ha, ha taught him well. 

Hope this helps,
Wes

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Post by -TT- Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:53 pm

May I also ask - it seems like you'd raise the pistol half as many times, and hold for much less, per match. Does that help too? Or should proper training negate any such benefit? This sharpshooter's arm certainly feels it.

Interesting note about taking advantage of slack wind moments. I've been tempted by that.

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Post by robert84010 Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:14 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Tom Woods won National’s shooting like this. He trained for a year to prepare for Perry and won it this way. He shot SF like this ever after.....
Jon

I read somewhere that Herschel Anderson shot slow fire very fast. Lift, shoot. I don't know but it seems like he had this type of approach? He stated in a video that he once took over 20 lifts to break the first shot in a slow fire string. That is commitment. Any insight to his approach?

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Post by Jon Eulette Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:00 pm

Herschel was pretty much describing his discipline level to break a shot. If it wasn't right for whatever reason he was aborting the shot and working on the best shot he could break. If he worked hard and had a bad shot it wasn't because he wasn't doing his very best. Also when you work that hard to break your very best shot and its less than desirable it doesn't hurt the same way shooting a crappy shot you knew better than breaking.
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Post by robert84010 Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:08 am

Since you started on the reserve team with guys like Makin and Reiter and others that actually shot with Herschel, back in the day, I was wondering if those guys said anything about him shooting each SF shot fast.

I understood what taking 20 lifts to break a shot says about a persons commitment to nothing but perfect.

I've always said to beginners the hardest thing to do in SF is aborting and starting over.

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Post by Jon Eulette Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:16 pm

Don't remember anyone ever saying that. Next time I talk to Reiter l'll ask him.
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Post by Ed Hall Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:51 am

Something I will add, that I did hear from Steve Reiter: Decide before the shots how many you will fire, and don't shoot bad shots.  If you decide to fire two, expect and fire two, unless you have to abort.  I have found this pretty good advice.  When I leave the number open ended and shoot as long as they recover well, I invariably finish with a lesser shot as the last one.

Along that same line, Bill Blankenship once told us to learn what a good settle looks like and if your settle doesn't look that way, don't fire.

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Post by chopper Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:45 pm

Ed, what are some elements to a good settle ? I know this sounds like a dumb question. Does it just mean if your shaking too much like wobbling,  or taking too long ?
Stan

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Post by Jon Eulette Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:21 pm

Stan,

What he's saying is that when you determine up front that you are going to shoot TWO shots, you will be prepared to shoot TWO shots. Your stance, hold, etc will be mentally prepared to execute the TWO shots. If you just lift and shoot several shots without deciding up front that you are going to shoot a certain number of shots your hold/wobble will normally/typically be not as good as when you mentally decided on a set number of shots. You are executing your shot plan for those TWO shots!
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Post by robert84010 Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:42 pm

Ed Hall wrote:Something I will add, that I did hear from Steve Reiter: Decide before the shots how many you will fire, and don't shoot bad shots.  If you decide to fire two, expect and fire two, unless you have to abort.  I have found this pretty good advice.  When I leave the number open ended and shoot as long as they recover well, I invariably finish with a lesser shot as the last one.

Along that same line, Bill Blankenship once told us to learn what a good settle looks like and if your settle doesn't look that way, don't fire.
This is what Lozoya told me also. Train to do two shots. Never just decide oh, this time i'll do two because there is a lull. Always know before the first what you will be doing.


Last edited by robert84010 on Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by bruce martindale Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:43 pm

A commitment, not a Let's see what Happens?  I get bit by the latter but sometimes it's the first shot that's bad. Then Dr Finga says doh! Do it this way here..

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Post by Jon Eulette Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:13 pm

bruce martindale wrote:A commitment, not a Let's see what Happens?  I get bit by the latter but sometimes it's the first shot that's bad. Then Dr Finga says doh! Do it this way here..
Bruce,

Really similar to shooting the short line, the first shot is the hard shot and the next 4 just follow it! In practice I've shot clean TF 50 yard SF targets, but never had the guts to try it in a match Smile
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Post by Axehandle Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:14 am

I remember the first time I shot on a range with Tom Woods.    It was at the old Nashville Matchmasters range at the NGMTU at the airport in Nashville in the mid 80s at the Tennessee Trophy match.  Makes me smile. Smile

On the timed fire slow fire plan.  I've found that I shoot a better match if I continue to shoot so long as the guns returns to position and the sights look good.  I shoot a better overall score because at 68 years old  I don't get as tired.

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Post by Ed Hall Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:27 am

chopper wrote:Ed, what are some elements to a good settle ? I know this sounds like a dumb question. Does it just mean if your shaking too much like wobbling,  or taking too long ?
Stan
That's a personal determination.  You have to study and understand how your settle looks, feels, etc., when you produce a good shot.  Then, look for that settle.*  Over time, learn the difference in settling.  Then, only complete those that settle the way good shots settle.

* It is very important to choose looking for reasons to continue, rather than reasons to abort.  Seek what you wish to find.

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Post by chopper Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:57 am

Jon, I understand it now. I'm just finally learning why the shot plan is such a major part of shooting. If I don't have one, train and practice it to the best of my ability, how can I expect to execute shots. 
 So like everything in shooting, write up a plan to do, train a lot, confirm by practice before shooting a match.
 I've shot in the wind before and practiced in the wind by waiting for a lull, then shoot. Maybe it's time to train and practice 2-shot drills with my 1-shots. I might try this RF timing into a slow-fire plan but not until I've improved with my fundamentals to expert class. Thanks
 Stan

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Post by chopper Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:58 am

Thanks Ed.
Stan

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Post by Guntrainer Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:17 pm

As an old head who shot on an Army Pistol team 50+ years ago, I still do one shot drills on SF. I feel it is cardinal to get all TF rounds in the 10 ring.

Another old head, last name Blankenship, told me long ago to try to not drop over 2 or 3 points on SF. Run the TF, and don't drop over 2 or 3 points on RF. You will not always win the match, but they will remember your name. On a good day, you will have 296 or better. On a bad day, you will have a 294. Nothing to sneeze at. I have, in the dim past, shot a 300-14X with the 45 pistol, but no one can expect to have a stellar day every day.

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