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Etiquette - spotting scopes

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Post by Dehumanizer 2/11/2021, 1:16 pm

As mentioned in another post. I had an issue with my sight being loose and in my first set posted a 69 because I was shooting low left.

Is there anything wrong with during the slow fires to peer into my spotting scope to make sure my shots are going where they are supposed to be?

I know I should not be adjusting my sights during the 10 minutes but should anyone have a problem with me spotting during the 10 minutes?

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Post by zanemoseley 2/11/2021, 1:23 pm

You can do anything you want with your scope and adjust your sights all you want.

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Post by chiz1180 2/11/2021, 1:45 pm

The only real trick to a spotting scope is making sure it is on the right target

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Post by 8eightring 2/11/2021, 1:54 pm

chiz1180 wrote:The only real trick to a spotting scope is making sure it is on the right target
Been there , done that , have the tee shirt Sad
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Post by SteveT 2/11/2021, 2:06 pm

It seems you have the opposite problem of most bullseye shooters. Most shooters look through their spotting scope far more than they should. You may have an excellent future in this sport!

The primary purpose of the spotting scope is to make sure you gun is sighted in properly. If the first shot is on-call, there is no more need for the scope.

The secondary purpose is to observe your group before going down range so you can make a sight adjustment without the time pressure of the next string starting.

The last purpose is to pre-score your target as much as possible before going down range to save time.

The absolute worst possible use of the scope is to verify that the bad shot you just took really is way out there. 

Most people can't resist looking through the scope for each shot. They will say this is their process, but I don't buy it. In my experience, when I am shooting really well, spotting each shot helps build confidence and I tell myself "I am a great shooter" and "good shots breed more good shots". When I am shooting average there is no advantage to scoping more then the first shot of the first target. If I take a bad shot or if I am not shooting well that day the last thing I want is to see those bad shots.

Here's a pro-tip: If you know you took a bad shot, don't look through the scope, instead VISUALIZE looking through the scope and see the hole not nearly as bad as it looked (hat tip to Ed Hall)
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Post by Dehumanizer 2/11/2021, 2:14 pm

SteveT wrote:It seems you have the opposite problem of most bullseye shooters. Most shooters look through their spotting scope far more than they should. You may have an excellent future in this sport!

The primary purpose of the spotting scope is to make sure you gun is sighted in properly. If the first shot is on-call, there is no more need for the scope.

The secondary purpose is to observe your group before going down range so you can make a sight adjustment without the time pressure of the next string starting.

The last purpose is to pre-score your target as much as possible before going down range to save time.

The absolute worst possible use of the scope is to verify that the bad shot you just took really is way out there. 

Most people can't resist looking through the scope for each shot. They will say this is their process, but I don't buy it. In my experience, when I am shooting really well, spotting each shot helps build confidence and I tell myself "I am a great shooter" and "good shots breed more good shots". When I am shooting average there is no advantage to scoping more then the first shot of the first target. If I take a bad shot or if I am not shooting well that day the last thing I want is to see those bad shots.

Here's a pro-tip: If you know you took a bad shot, don't look through the scope, instead VISUALIZE looking through the scope and see the hole not nearly as bad as it looked (hat tip to Ed Hall)

Thanks for taking the time to answer this. Last thing I want to do is present bad first impressions. This weekend will be my third match so I am overly cautious right now. I appreciate the advice I have been getting on the forum. I have learned a lot so far.

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Post by CR10X 2/11/2021, 3:46 pm

You can use the scope as much as you want to. Heck, you can even scope your string in rapid fire if you finish up in time.

Call your shot, then scope your call.  If it ain't where you called it, then the scope will not help.

Yes, I generally scope every slow fire shot to confirm my call.  And I focus on  the "X" as part of the last thing I see through the scope.

You can wait to scope at the end, or even only the first shot.  

But no matter what you do at the line, eventually you have to go down and see the results.  

(And lastly, it's a lot easier to not crossfire more than one shot if you are checking each one.  Wink )

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Post by joy2shoot 2/11/2021, 6:48 pm

CR10X wrote:Call your shot, then scope your call.

Note how Cecil is saying 'scope your call' and not scope your shot. An important distinction. This is how you learn to call your shots. And once you learn to call your shots, that will aid you in diagnosing issues.

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Post by Dehumanizer 2/11/2021, 7:27 pm

joy2shoot wrote:
CR10X wrote:Call your shot, then scope your call.

Note how Cecil is saying 'scope your call' and not scope your shot. An important distinction. This is how you learn to call your shots. And once you learn to call your shots, that will aid you in diagnosing issues.

Does it sound as it is? Wouldn't we all call x's

Please explain further for a newbie.

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Post by DA/SA 2/11/2021, 7:35 pm

Dehumanizer wrote: Wouldn't we all call x's

You don't call where you want it to go, you call where you believe it went by where the dot was in relation to the target when the shot broke. 

Then you scope to see if that is where it actually went. 

With practice, the two will be the same.
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Post by chiz1180 2/11/2021, 7:51 pm

Dehumanizer wrote:
joy2shoot wrote:
CR10X wrote:Call your shot, then scope your call.

Note how Cecil is saying 'scope your call' and not scope your shot. An important distinction. This is how you learn to call your shots. And once you learn to call your shots, that will aid you in diagnosing issues.

Does it sound as it is? Wouldn't we all call x's

Please explain further for a newbie.
"Calling the shot" is the process of reading the sights as the shot breaks such that you know where the shot impacted on the target. This requires you to be completely honest with yourself, and takes some training. Ideally you should be able to call all your shots (have some general idea of where they are on target), this allows a check for your shot process. If a shot is off call, typically some component of your shot process is not being completed, or you could be having an ammo/equipment issue (e.g. loose sights, bad batch of ammo, ect.). 

Being perfectly honest, it took me quite some time and effort to figure out how to actually do it well.

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Post by CO1Mtn 2/11/2021, 8:01 pm

I do it after every shot in slow fire. You want to do that to see if you can call your shots. You should know if you jerked left or shot too low after a shot in slow fire, then check the scope to confirm.
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Post by john bickar 2/11/2021, 8:10 pm

DA/SA wrote:With practice, the two will be the same.

In theory.

I practice, when it comes to calling our shots, most of us are somewhere on the continuum between, "Yes, that was a well-executed X", and "PLEASE COME BACK!!!"
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Post by 8eightring 2/11/2021, 9:09 pm

Practice good follow through before jerking your head over to spot the shot. Give the bullet time to reach the target.
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Post by john bickar 2/11/2021, 9:21 pm

Dehumanizer, you seem to be very, very early in your bullseye pistol journey, and it appears that you have asked smart questions thus far. Welcome, and I hope you enjoy your travels on this road. Keep asking smart questions.

I won't pile on to this thread with my opinions on whether one should scope or not; I have made those opinions clear here and on Target Talk.

Regarding etiquette, it is perfectly acceptable to scope each shot (during slow fire, after you have completed your follow through and safely set the gun down), in order to ascertain whether the shot went through the paper approximately where you expected it to hit.

As others have stated, it is quite a learning experience to "call" (i.e., "predict") where your shot will land, and then face the cold hard reality through the spotting scope.
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Post by Dehumanizer 2/11/2021, 10:08 pm

john bickar wrote:Dehumanizer, you seem to be very, very early in your bullseye pistol journey, and it appears that you have asked smart questions thus far. Welcome, and I hope you enjoy your travels on this road. Keep asking smart questions.

I won't pile on to this thread with my opinions on whether one should scope or not; I have made those opinions clear here and on Target Talk.

Regarding etiquette, it is perfectly acceptable to scope each shot (during slow fire, after you have completed your follow through and safely set the gun down), in order to ascertain whether the shot went through the paper approximately where you expected it to hit.

As others have stated, it is quite a learning experience to "call" (i.e., "predict") where your shot will land, and then face the cold hard reality through the spotting scope.

Thanks for the compliments! You guessed it I am going to my third match this weekend. Trying different things and spending more than I should. I accidently fell into the sport and believe it or not it was because of COVID.

I got back into shooting around October 2019. I sold a guitar I found in a pawn shop for $400 at $1200. My brother in law told me I should check out a H&K P30 9mm. It fit my hand like a glove. Paid $550 for it. I went to the rang with it a few times and was complimented for my accuracy. Some suggested I should try IDPA. I shot my first match in February and all went to he'll with COVID. Everything shut down. Prices of ammo went up. Gun prices went up. My local range let's you rent guns and I started renting a buckmark to shoot every week. It was an indoor range and decided to try my hand at precision pistol. Cranked the target out at 25 yards and was able to at least stay on the target from that distance. As you may have picked up on my other posts I was avid pool player and precision pistol utilizes the same focus, mindset and preparation that pool does without having to use my shoulder as much and I don't have to bend over to aim. Smile

Since I have bought my own buckmark, sw22 and ruger mkiii 22/45. I have put tandemkross triggers in the buckmark and sw22. I just installed a volquartsen carbon fiber barrel on the sw22 and have the volquartsen grips with a compensator coming on Saturday.

So had COVID not hit I probably would still be shooting 9mm idpa with my P30 and missed out on what I think will be a new hobby for a long time.

Thanks to all of you that have been great advisors thus far and have taught me so much without judging. So far it has been awesome!

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Post by CR10X 2/12/2021, 5:44 am

Dehumanizer:

First, I did respond to the post you made not realizing you were a new bullseye shooter.  So, congratulations and welcome.

Now for a couple of suggestions.  

First you might want to post your general location in your profile, that might get you some local support or contacts for actual shooting, etc. (and the last item on my list below) 

Second, I would suggest you grab a large container of your favorite beverage (neat or single rock as your preference) your favorite pen and secure a nice medium sized composition book.  Then go over to the Fundamentals Discussion and  Bullseye Education Library and start skimming and doing searches on various topics or questions.  The notebook is for your questions, potential answers, references, your future scores, etc. etc.

Third, as soon a possible find a actual Precision Pistol (Bullseye) match (which may be hard to do depending on your location). You will see lots of setups, guns, scopes, shooters and get some answers, ideas and probably a lot more questions.  But it is a lot more fun than reading on the list!

Otherwise, posting here will always get you some kind of response.  Shocked   The usefulness may be questionable, the humor a little "quirky" , opinions strongly held and the enthusiasm pretty high.  Laughing

Again, welcome and good shooting.

CR

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Post by David R 2/12/2021, 7:11 am

I did this at first:

Place a target in front of me.  After each shot, place an empty shell where I think the shot went.  Bring the target back and compare.   This is how I learned to call my shots.   Once you have it, you can make sight adjustments during a match with success. 

My wife has been shooting for 3 years.  She says the dot was on the X when I pulled the trigger.   She does not get it. I don't say much, I am happy she is shooting with me. 

David
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Post by DonBrummer 2/12/2021, 9:53 am

David R wrote:
My wife has been shooting for 3 years.  She says the dot was on the X when I pulled the trigger.   She does not get it. I don't say much, I am happy she is shooting with me. 

David

lol!
He has learned the secret to a long and happy marriage, smart man!
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Post by chopper 2/12/2021, 8:34 pm

8eightring wrote:
chiz1180 wrote:The only real trick to a spotting scope is making sure it is on the right target
Been there , done that , have the tee shirt Sad
 Me too, couldn't believe how great I was shooting that slow target.
Stan

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Post by Jack H 2/12/2021, 8:52 pm

chopper wrote:
8eightring wrote:
chiz1180 wrote:The only real trick to a spotting scope is making sure it is on the right target
Been there , done that , have the tee shirt Sad
 Me too, couldn't believe how great I was shooting that slow target.
Stan

Let's double the fun here.

Long ago, I was totally frustrated not being able to see my shots on call.  After about 5 SF shots I just starred through my scope and then my neighbor fired a shot and a hole appeared on my target. 
"Did you just crossfire on my target"  I asked. 
"Nope" said neighbor

About a split second later, it hit me.  And I moved my scope to my target. 
Sorry about that I later said to my neighbor.  She got a chuckle out of it.
I had a stupid moment there.
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Post by Ed Hall 2/13/2021, 8:01 am

Jack H wrote:Let's double the fun here.

Long ago, . . .
I've witnessed worse, Jack. That's nowhere near as bad as a fellow league member, "long ago."  He asked if I shot his target, then went to the shooter on his left, the shooter on my right, two shooters down on his left, three up and down, and then the range officer, before returning to his point and moving the rear of his box over a little.

Now, since I've gone ahead and posted to this thread, I should at least add some of the things that I've refrained from posting, thus far:

I haven't seen mention of setting things up so you can watch through the scope with one eye while aiming with the other.  (Perhaps I shouldn't give anyone any ideas. . .)



Some of these further thoughts have already been touched on here and many have more detail elsewhere in the forum, but I will add them.

You should set your scope so as to add as little as possible movement to see through it.  You should especially set it up so you can look without breaking your stance.

You should take a moment to relive the shot before racing to the scope.

You should focus on location rather than value.  Leave scoring for later.

Before leaving the scope, focus on centered shots or the center of the target, rather than any wide shots.

As SteveT mentioned (thanks for the "hat tip"), if you had a "less than perfect shot," do a mental scoping of it falling as a better shot.

And, a little off the topic, but mentioned earlier, yes, if you learn your settle well enough, you can call a shot prior to firing it.  When you reach this point, fire only those you call within your acceptable settle. Go ahead and verify those with your scope, although when you do reach that level, the scope probably won't be as important to you.

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Post by straybrit 2/13/2021, 2:14 pm

Since Perry 2014 (I think - maybe +/- one year) I always try and scope after the first 5 shots of timed fire. This after admiring the anger management skills of a USMC shooter and being thankful that he was shooting JHP as opposed to my LSWC. Yes - I put all 10 rounds on his target.

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Post by David R 2/14/2021, 8:19 am

Shooting my first military rifle match.  I had an M1 Garand.   No spotting, scope, just enough ammo for the match after sighting in. 

The guy next to me said out of the side of his mouth, You have a couple holes in my target.   I got all flustered.    When we scored targets, I had all shots on my paper.    We became good friends after a while.  

Never forget it. 

Sorry for off topic.   He passed a few years ago and this made me think of him. 

David
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Post by James Hensler 2/15/2021, 7:12 am

chiz1180 wrote:The only real trick to a spotting scope is making sure it is on the right target
Oh god this is Soooo true! I know first hand! Lol
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