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Beloved M41 is in the shop

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Beloved M41 is in the shop Empty Beloved M41 is in the shop

Post by xman 3/16/2021, 11:17 am

Well my well loved S&W M41 is at the gunsmith. Problem is FTFE failure to fully extract. I have owned for it about 5 years. bought at a gun show. Only have fired CCI SV and now Aguila SE SV. The CCI ran very smoothly. The problem started with the Aguila about a third of the time.

The case is blown out of the chamber about 3/4 of the way and the bolt continues back, picks up the next round and jams it in the underside of the failed to fully extract case.

I have cleaned and scrubbed the chamber with a .22 brush with Shooters Choice and with a .38 brush and an L bent .22 brush. It passes the plunk test with several lots of Aguila SE that I have.

I purchased a Volquartsen extractor. The counter guy at the gunsmith suggested I shoot CCI Minimag having "added" force should push the case out. I explained to him again what was happening and that SV has been just fine. The case is 75% out of the chamber but the extractor does not seem to engage the rim as the case is pushed out and throw the case out of the loading platform area.

I know that the M41 is a blowback operated design for case push out and the extractor hook engages the case rim only after the case has begun to be blown out.

So now it is a waiting game and will use my back-up Buckmark. The Buckmark eats everything up that I have fed it including Aguila.
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Post by DrewBone 3/16/2021, 1:25 pm

Could possibly be a weak extractor spring.

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Post by CrankyThunder 3/16/2021, 1:39 pm

Is the ejector loose or worn (not the extractor, the ejector)?

Smith and Wesson calls it the slide stop but it is really the ejector. 

Regards, 
Crankster
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Post by xman 3/16/2021, 2:15 pm

CrankyThunder wrote:Is the ejector loose or worn (not the extractor, the ejector)?

Smith and Wesson calls it the slide stop but it is really the ejector. 

Regards, 
Crankster
I did consider the slide stop that serves as the actual part that shoots the case away but the failed to fully extract case never get to the slide stop. It is still about an 1/8 inch to 3/16ths inch still in the chamber. I think the extractor is over riding the case rim after the blow back operation pushes out the case at some point in the process. IMHO

And the gunsmith is going to inspect/clean the extractor spring and advise if it is weak/flawed. I looked around for a spring from the usual and unusual sources including S&W. S&W did not have any available which I found as odd as they are producing PC M41. I guess the PC has dibs on parts.
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Post by -TT- 3/16/2021, 2:56 pm

xman wrote:I did consider the slide stop that serves as the actual part that shoots the case away but the failed to fully extract case never get to the slide stop. It is still about an 1/8 inch to 3/16ths inch still in the chamber.

Are you certain of that? If the brass is not thrown out, it can be rechambered by the forward-moving slide, which will inevitably stick partway because it's bulged after firing. My Benelli has a habit of doing this when the chamber gets filthy. The bolt cycles, but the empty brass goes right back home.

If the brass never leaves the chamber, it's a strong indication of a dirty chamber, or a much-too-strong recoil spring for the charge, or perhaps other friction.

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Post by xman 3/16/2021, 3:18 pm

-TT- wrote:
xman wrote:I did consider the slide stop that serves as the actual part that shoots the case away but the failed to fully extract case never get to the slide stop. It is still about an 1/8 inch to 3/16ths inch still in the chamber.

Are you certain of that? If the brass is not thrown out, it can be rechambered by the forward-moving slide, which will inevitably stick partway because it's bulged after firing. My Benelli has a habit of doing this when the chamber gets filthy. The bolt cycles, but the empty brass goes right back home.

If the brass never leaves the chamber, it's a strong indication of a dirty chamber, or a much-too-strong recoil spring for the charge, or perhaps other friction.
 When the issue happens the case is pretty far outside the chamber. And the next bullet that has been stripped from the magazine dives under the case that is sticking out of the chamber. The case of the failed to fully extract is so deformed now that I have to drop the mag and run a cleaning rod to push out the now deformed case.

I do clean the barrel and chamber and do the plunk test and the bullets seat flush to the chamber.
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Post by bruce martindale 3/16/2021, 3:40 pm

Counter guy can do something with his mini mags! Blasphemy.

Damages your gun.

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Post by xman 3/16/2021, 3:51 pm

bruce martindale wrote:Counter guy can do something with his mini mags! Blasphemy.

Damages your gun.

I never shot mini mags in the M41. And I have the buffer on the recoil spring no matter what I shoot. One time I had to buy some kind of 22 ammo for a shoot and I bought a box of I think of 625 Federal 22 Auto Match. Was not impressed. That has been the only higher velocity ammo I have ever used and that was 4 years ago.
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Post by kc.crawford.7 3/17/2021, 6:32 am

Is your bolt loose in the slide?
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Beloved M41 is in the shop Empty Bolt loose in the slide?

Post by xman 3/17/2021, 9:00 am

kc.crawford.7 wrote:Is your bolt loose in the slide?
Not as far as I could tell. I have field stripped the M41 several times since last match on Sunday to do barrel and chamber cleaning/plunk test with various ammo. CCI SV, Aguila SE SV and Eley Target.

If it was/is loose, it did not make itself apparent.
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Beloved M41 is in the shop Empty slide stop

Post by smithfan4152 3/17/2021, 12:26 pm

Now if the Slide stop is really the Ejector, then what stops the slide????
That's right, multi tasking, the slide stop is a dual purpose item, it ejects the round and also stops the slide. You didn't happen to have another barrel to try? Hope it get's fixed. Stay well.
Smithfan.

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Post by xman 3/17/2021, 1:24 pm

smithfan4152 wrote:Now if the Slide stop is really the Ejector, then what stops the slide????
That's right, multi tasking, the slide stop is a dual purpose item, it ejects the round and also stops the slide. You didn't happen to have another barrel to try? Hope it get's fixed. Stay well.
Smithfan.
Actually I do have another M41 upper. I did not even think to try it as far as using the 3 brands of ammo that I have as I was kind of focused on the extractor as being the issue. The EIC upper passes the plunk test no problem as did the 2700 upper.

I have only the one lower. I swap the uppers for 2700's and EIC. I gave the gunsmith the gun with the 2700 upper, a new Volquartsen extractor, 1 mag and ammo to do function tests.

Have no shoots until early April. The counter guy at the gunsmith said 2 weeks. So just waiting.
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Post by xman 3/22/2021, 3:01 pm

Well got my M41 back from the shop. The gunsmith put the Volquaetsen Extractor in and test fired with Aguila (I supplied it), and some of his own stuff ..mostly HV stuff. The Aquila SE SV presented the same problem that brought the M41 into the shop ..Failure to fully extract. He suggested changing ammo and the counter guy again suggested to shoot Minimags. The HV the smith used ran just fine.

So it is either a ammo issue, a spring issue, or a combo of both.

On the way home I purchased a cigar torch. To flux out any leading that normal cleaning with Hoppes and Shooters Choice might have missed. I have several lots of Aguila SE SV and did the plunk test and the rounds settled in the chamber cleanly. The lot I had been using, the pluck test was sporadically flush in the same box of 50.
 
I took the bolt out and slipped a round under the new extractor and it held the round firmly. I could not shake it loose. I don't know if it mean anything. I had not done that with the old extractor.

Going to the range tomorrow with the old lot and the new lot of Aguila. Will see what happens.
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Post by Wobbley 3/22/2021, 4:03 pm

FWIW, I have never been able to get Aguila to run in my 41.  CCI SV, Eley, Lapua and SK are fine, Aguila not a chance.
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Post by bruce martindale 3/22/2021, 4:09 pm

Me either. But Sometimes, if oiled.

The issue is the shape of the rear bolt face and where it contacts he hammer. Other friends guns do work with it

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Post by xman 3/22/2021, 4:24 pm

bruce martindale wrote:Me either. But Sometimes, if oiled.

The issue is the shape of the rear bolt face and where it contacts he hammer. Other friends guns do work with it
I have several lots of Aguila SE SV and the one hanging up is the smallest one. It runs fine in my backup Buckmark. Update tomorrow, hopefully good news.
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Post by John Dervis 3/22/2021, 8:29 pm

I know it's not what you want to hear but I am of the camp that thinks it might be the Aguila ammo.  It's not exactly the same but I have a Marlin Rifle that drove me nuts with cheap Winchester ammo.  50% of the time it will stick in the chamber and I have to pry out the empty case.  I cleaned the chamber, polished it, bought a swaging tool to get rid of a dry-fire burr and replaced the extractor all with no success.  An un-fired round would drop in and drop out and would cycle with the lever so it seems nothing is wrong.  Many other brands of ammo work fine in this gun AND that cheap Winchester works great in several other 22s I have.  After spending a good part of last year trying to isolate the issue I finally gave up and will not shoot that ammo in that gun.  Sorry for that bad news but hopefully you can find something that will work.

John


Last edited by John Dervis on 3/22/2021, 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Forgot I replaced the extractor too)

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Post by dlevasse 3/22/2021, 9:07 pm

I real don't think this the problem but I have had 2 Slide stop / Ejector levers crack on my model 41"s both about the age of yours.

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Post by xman 3/22/2021, 9:15 pm

John Dervis wrote:I know it's not what you want to hear but I am of the camp that thinks it might be the Aguila ammo.  It's not exactly the same but I have a Marlin Rifle that drove me nuts with cheap Winchester ammo.  50% of the time it will stick in the chamber and I have to pry out the empty case.  I cleaned the chamber, polished it, bought a swaging tool to get rid of a dry-fire burr and replaced the extractor all with no success.  An un-fired round would drop in and drop out and would cycle with the lever so it seems nothing is wrong.  Many other brands of ammo work fine in this gun AND that cheap Winchester works great in several other 22s I have.  After spending a good part of last year trying to isolate the issue I finally gave up and will not shoot that ammo in that gun.  Sorry for that bad news but hopefully you can find something that will work.

John
One of the things I have NOT tried is to shoot without the buffer with the Aguila SV. I will have a busy day at the range tomorrow. I have the "problem" lot about 1100 rounds and another lot of 5000 to tryout.
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Post by xman 3/22/2021, 9:18 pm

dlevasse wrote:I real don't think this the problem but I have had 2 Slide stop / Ejector levers crack on my model 41"s both about the age of yours.
The gunsmith had my M41 for a week and I trust that he would have noticed that when he was changing out the extractor and was fire testing for function.
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Post by Lamar H 3/22/2021, 9:43 pm

Do not know why some one has not suggested to take the buffer out?
try setting it up with correct recoil spring
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Post by xman 3/23/2021, 2:30 pm

After 4 hours at the range, doing 5 shot drills at 25 yards the conclusion is not readily apparent.
The suspect ammo lot ran well in my backup Buckmark. First several series with another lot of Aguila ran well in the M41 with no stoppages. After about 5 5 shot series a few stoppages did occur. Mostly stove pipes but no failure to fully extract issues. 

I will segregate the main offending lot to my Buckmark.

As far as the new lot goes, I ran a bore snake through the M41 and placed just a drop of oil on the lead bullet and no stoppages through 10 5 shot series. I will just have to deal with the oil splatter on the ocular lens of my dot sight. I have several lens cloths that I have been using and wash them after every shooting session/match. I was lubing the full length of the case and bullet on the advice of a local Master. And that was splattering a whole lot. The whole loading/chamber/bolt area was awash with oil

Next weeks practice I will experiment with not having the buffer in the M41.

Stay tuned.
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Post by BE Mike 3/24/2021, 9:17 am

I had a High Standard Victor that would do the same thing. It would function with HV, but not SV ammo. I carefully, polished out the chamber, being sure not to get into the rifling. It functioned fine after that for many years with SV ammo.
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