Bullseye-L Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

.22 Magazine help

+4
jjfitch
chiz1180
CR10X
Froneck
8 posters

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty .22 Magazine help

Post by Froneck 3/20/2021, 11:15 am

As posted I'm making a .22 conversion for the 1911. I'm at the point where I have to put th barrel in location. I have a Nelson conversion and copied some of the dimensions. Other will be mine due to my intention to put the ejector on the frame like the 1911 and it will be a modified (wider width) 1911 ejector.
 I have a .22 Ace mag and another that has no name but an interesting round logo. Both seem very similar. I have the plastic magazine that came with the Nelson and purchased the German GSG .22 Mag for 1911. Also purchased Colt 1911.22 mag. from Gun Magazine Warehouse. Was steel but will not fit a 1911. Sent them back. Also have magazines from other top made pistols. The lips of the Colt Ace and the clone plus AW93, Baikal and  Hammerli are very similar. The rear lips are quite long, about 5/8" and the front lips nearest the barrel chamber are about 19/64" long. The sets are separated by a notch with an angle that will force the rim of the case upward.  However the Nelson and GSG mags have a similar front set of lips yet the rear set are quite a bit shorter by about 1/4".
 In the other target .22 pistols listed when I slowly allow the slide to close the .22 bullet begins to enter the barrel about 7/32" before reaching the notch and released buy the rear lips. However when looking at the Nelson with the Nelson mag (has slightly shorter rear lips than the GSG). The Bullet is at least 1/4" before the  barrel bore and the cartridge will fall out of the gun and not chamber. Yes if I release the catch and allow the spring to close the slide at a fast rate the cartridge will chamber. When I do the same thing with the other pistols mentioned the cartridge enters the chamber when the slide is closed sloooly.
 In looking at the Nelson I see he has the Barrel in about the same place as the 45ACP barrel when locked up. Yet the .45 barrel moves to the read when unlocked so that the .45 bullet will enter the barrel a short distance and will chamber if the slide is allowed to close slooowly.
 Thinking that is a problem with the Nelson and possibly other conversions I'm fitting the barrel further back, I'm at the point when the Ace magazine will allow the bullet to enter the barrel about 1/8" before the rim reaches the notch. However if I use the Nelson or GSG mag it will not.
 That is my problem, should I move the barrel back far enough to work like the target Pistols mentioned so I can use a GSG mag.? I could use the Ace magazine and the clone but can't find another clone and Ace magazines on ebay sell for a fortune!
 Any thoughts on this???

Froneck

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 74

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by CR10X 3/20/2021, 11:38 am

Ok, like you have found, the GSG / poly mags tend to hold the bullets further to the rear than an Ace magazine or Kart.  In other words the Ace and Kart have more of a filler at the back of the magazine well.  Now typically this does not make much difference, but I think it does contribute to the GSG / poly mags sometimes having issues with certain magazine well / frame dimensions / different conversions.  

The Kart magazine will also have a "narrower" gap for the slide to strip the bullet from the magazine than either the GSG / poly mags or the Ace.  So be sure to check that out when milling the bottom of the slide for the bolt face and under slide dimensions. 

So, in my opinion, you're probably better setting the barrel back if you are going to use the GSG / poly magazines (which seem to be pretty prevalent these days.)  I think that will improve the overall reliability, but the question will then be if you need to change the barrel feed ramp angle and really track the release angle of the rounds leaving the feed lips.

However another option is to find someone to fabricate the old Bob Day (Day Arms) .22 magazines that insert into a standard .45 acp magazine.  They are a little hard to load, but really do feed well and hold the bullet a little closer to the breech face.  Just need an upgrade design to not use the the little tab that catches on the magazine catch notch to stay inserted.  It really needed a better way to secure it into the magazine.  I've seen a couple that were pinned in place and they worked really well, even with Karts.  This is probably more of pain to do though, since you would then have to source the magazines rather than relying on standard production products.  (But they were a really "cool" solution!) 

CR

CR10X

Posts : 1564
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by chiz1180 3/20/2021, 12:12 pm

Few thoughts on polymer mags, they are not all the same. I have three different makes/ages of polymer mags with some minor variations in some of the dimensions.

The nelson magazines in particular hold the cartridge in slightly foreword compared other magazines (advantage arms, kimber, and GSG) when compared to the back of the magazine. 

If I was going to engineer a conversion from basically the ground up, I personally would pick a magazine that is readily available and I liked. Some people do not like polymer mags as it is not as easy to load as the colt ace or gsg mags.

chiz1180

Posts : 440
Join date : 2019-05-29

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by jjfitch 3/20/2021, 12:49 pm

What you are researching is "controlled feed" but the magazine is doing all the controlling. 

It might help if you Google: "Adjusting the feed lips on the Hi Standard military magazines by Jim Barta". 

It may not be exactly what will fix your issue but might get you in the ball park!

Smiles,
jjfitch
jjfitch

Posts : 86
Join date : 2012-08-31
Age : 74
Location : The Beautiful Pacific Northwest

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by Froneck 3/20/2021, 1:02 pm

I would like to use the Ace Mag. The clone I have seems to be an exact or nearly exact replica. Ace Mags on ebay are listed for a fortune! Day magazines are like hens teeth to find! The GSG does have the  spacer inside like the Ace but the lips are very short, not sure how far back I have the barrel now, my guess is 3/16" but still not enough for The GSG Mag! The Nelson Mag I have is a lot like the GSG, lips are shorter but a very small amount. Yes I don't like Plastic Mags and why I started with the Ace I found in my box of gun stuff, It's new!
 I doubt I'll make many, do want to make at least 1 possibly 2 for Adam probably the same for my other son and at least 2 for me if they work well!
 Problem is what ever I do can't be changed later, barrel will remain the same but the lower lug has to be moved back, the one I have is extra long both barrel length and lower lug but when cut changing it will not be possible. Slide is the same way, moving the slide back requires that the disconnector slot be moved forward, fireing pin shortened as well as the back of the slide! I'm hoping to find some Ace clones. Photo is a little fuzzy, I'll try to make better. Anyone know who that is?
 My plan is to duplicate the distance on my AW with the Ace Magazine in the frame, I have Mags for it. They try the GSG, the shorter distance than the Nelson might help.
 jjfitch, my problem is the lips on the magazines are very short, the cartridge pops out of the magazine before the bullet enters the barrel. It works in the Nelson when the slide is moving at full speed but I'm thinking there is a chance for error and cause a jam. The short lips are the problem.
 
.22 Magazine help Cimg1914

Froneck

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 74

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by chiz1180 3/20/2021, 1:17 pm

looks like metalform 

https://metalform.us/

chiz1180

Posts : 440
Join date : 2019-05-29

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by Froneck 3/20/2021, 1:47 pm

Thanks chiz, went to the site and logo looks identical! E-mailed them and I'll see what they say!

Froneck

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 74

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by Wes Lorenz 3/20/2021, 2:17 pm

I liked Cecil's idea about how the Day magazine insert works.
I just measured the inside of a 45 mag at .480" and a S&W 41 mag at .445".
You could shim, then pin the 41 mag in and even mill a slot to enable the use of the 41 follower button for re-loading.
41 mags are plentiful and you could even weld or braze on lip extensions if needed.
I am going to try this on my Kart conversions.

Wes Lorenz

Posts : 285
Join date : 2011-06-27
Location : Washington

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by CR10X 3/20/2021, 2:57 pm

Wes, a couple of decent photos of how the inserts fit in the .45 magazines here:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/894760275

Just scroll over a few pics and you can see two side shots and a top shot. 

On the side shot showing the magazine catch cutout, you can just see the little tab that holds the insert in place against the .45 mag spring / follower.  You just load the inserts in like one long bullet until the tab engages. 

As  you can see, the inserts hold the bullets fairly well forward in relation to the other conversion magazines.  I think the feed lips could be a little longer, but the 2 I have worked very well.  (So maybe putting a 41 .22 mag inside all the way to the front with spacer on the back might work out. )

In general a fairly simplistic solution to a complicated problem.  The actual inserts look somewhat like a .22 mag I've seen somewhere but can't place it.  If you need a photo of the inserts only, let me know.

CR

CR

CR10X

Posts : 1564
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by Froneck 3/21/2021, 12:43 am

My friend and I talked about the Day magazines. He has his dad's complete day conversion with the magazines. A few years ago we had a shooter at the club that used a Day conversion but he gave-up and purchased another .22. He had quite a few jams.
 Today I fitted the barrel back another 1/8", it's now moved back at least 1/4", Did more work on the slide, it will now push a .22 cartridge out of the magazine. I tried the Ace, works great but I don't have the barrel liner in yet, just a  hole reamed to .3105" diameter.. However the cartridge is in the barrel 1/4" before if leaves the lips on the  Ace mag. I tried the mag that came with the Nelson conversion, it worked too! However the .22 cartridge just at the face of the barrel but when it left the magazine it shot forward and into the hole for the liner. I then tried the GSG mag and when the cartridge came out of the mag it popped straight up.
 My 9/64" radius corner rounding end mill came today so tomorrow Ill finish the section that pushes the cartridge out of the mag. I'm waiting for the firing pin and extractor to come from Nelson. Also waiting for a few more special cutting tools I ordered. I'm hoping to complete the project next week!

Froneck

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 74

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by jglenn21 3/21/2021, 6:34 am

Frank that is a metalform mag
 For a limited time they made copies of the colt mags back in the day.
jglenn21
jglenn21

Posts : 2230
Join date : 2015-04-07
Age : 73
Location : monroe , ga

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by Froneck 3/22/2021, 10:31 am

I received the answer from Metalform, The .22 Mag is no longer made and tooling no longer exists. None in inventory so nothing is available.
 Did fit the barrel to the slide, waiting for extractors and firing pins from Nelson. I hope they come soon but I have other things to work on while waiting like getting the trigger and hammer in the 1911 frame and cutting the rim recess in the slide, put hole in barrel lower lug for slide stop pin..22 Magazine help Cimg1915

Froneck

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 74

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by bruce martindale 3/22/2021, 10:45 am

Wonder why they lost the tooling? Sounds like a legal issue to me.

bruce martindale

Posts : 943
Join date : 2011-07-29
Location : Upstate NY

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by Froneck 3/22/2021, 12:28 pm

I went to Metalform site, they have an e-mail address to send questions so asked about .22 conversion mags. Reply I got was from ATW that seem to represent Judson Smith, AT Wall and Paratech. No mention of Metalform in the reply I received. They will also come-up when clicking on ATW searched site. So I Assume the magazine business was something done by one of the 3 mentioned. Seems kinda stupid to me to have thrown-out the tooling especially now that the .22 conversion is becoming popular again.

Froneck

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 74

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by chiz1180 3/22/2021, 3:29 pm

Manufacturing (especially companies who do work for OEMs) is volume based. If one particular product offering is not pulling as much as another, the lesser pulled article is often pulled from production. I would guess for every 22 magazine they sold when they made them the sold exponentially more of another model. Liquidating tooling and machines is very common practice in manufacturing, their are many in the business of buying old/unused industrial tooling and reselling or scrapping.


Last edited by chiz1180 on 3/22/2021, 3:29 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarification)

chiz1180

Posts : 440
Join date : 2019-05-29

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by Froneck 3/22/2021, 11:29 pm

What about triple K Magazines are they any good?
 Attached is 2 photos of the Ace Mag inserted with SK round ( all photos will be using the same exact cartidge

.22 Magazine help Cimg1916
.22 Magazine help Cimg1917


Last edited by Froneck on 3/23/2021, 10:29 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added photos)

Froneck

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 74

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty GSG Mag photos

Post by Froneck 3/23/2021, 10:56 am

2 more photos with GSG mag Red line is Red Magic marker I used to cut the radius in the ramp, Red line is the same diameter as the rim of the cartrige. Also seen is black magic marker I used to fit the slide. I know it should make any difference but slide fit is as good as a tight shooting .45. Might loosen it later. .22 Magazine help Cimg1921
.22 Magazine help Cimg1919

Froneck

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 74

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Nelson Mag

Post by Froneck 3/23/2021, 11:31 am

Nelson Mag. Difficult to do because it's very hard to get the rim to say on the very edge of the Mag lips.
 Note ramp was trimmed .178" shorter than what was on the Nelson barrel, Barrel is also set back further and a little bit of the ramp extends into the magazine well but does not touch the magazine. Overall the Barrel was set back about 1/4" yet neither the GSG or Marvel plastic Mag allow the bullet to enter the barrel as it does all my other .22s. Yet with the longer lips on the Ace Mag the bullet enters the barrel quite a bit. Yet this barrel was set back toward the magazine well 1/4" so add 1/4" to the distance for Nelson as built..22 Magazine help Cimg1922
.22 Magazine help Cimg1923

Froneck

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 74

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by Froneck 3/29/2021, 6:19 pm

Minor set back, so as to test clambering the round in an actual chamber not the .3105 reamed hole I cut to fit the liner I made a stubby liner 1-1/4" long and used my cambering reamers so it's exactly like the barrel will be and inserted into the barrel. Photo shows how far round will enter the barrel by pushing the slide. The over 1/4" set back increases the loading angle so round will not chamber, however by moving the barrel about 1/32" forward round will chamber..22 Magazine help Cimg1924

Froneck

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 74

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by Kermit Workman 4/2/2021, 7:18 pm

Let me throw my .02 cents in on this discussion. I have 2 Karts and a Dworak conversions on separate frames.( 1 Essex and 2 Caspian) In my 30 plus years with these conversions I have used OEM Kart mags ( adjusted by several pistolsmiths) , Colt Ace magazines, GSG and AND Jagemann. Forget the Colt and Kart magazines they never were reliable enough to depend upon. Plus I could never get them to lock the slide back. The GSG from limited use was reliable but I have found the Jagemann to be 100% reliable in the three units.
 The Jagemann requires a metal rod ( I use an Allen wrench) to be inserted through the exposed follower to easily load ammo into the magazine. Also the right rear feed lip needs some material removed so that the  slide will fully close. The breech face was hitting on the magazine lip. I can't remember but I think it was the Dworak unit that needed this modifaction. I paid $25.00 each for the magazines and got them from Marvel.
 John Dworak supplied Colt Ace magazines with his conversions. He was in search of a substitute in 2018 at Camp Perry. I can't recall the history but Marvel needed a magazine and settled on the Jagemann.

Kermit Workman

Posts : 115
Join date : 2011-06-11
Age : 66
Location : Lenore, WV

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by Froneck 4/3/2021, 10:19 am

Kermit; the Jagermann magazines, are they the same plastic mag. I got with the Nelson conversion? Are they plastic or metal?
I'm kinda a guy that will inspect and evaluate his toys before playing with them. What you can see in my photo concerned me when I got the Nelson. I inserted a round in the mag., with the gun sideways on a new frame with no hammer or internal parts, it was safe yet pointed in a safe direction. I slowly let the slide go forward and the round fell out of the pistol. I then noticed the mag lips were set back so that they would release the round over 1/4" short of the barrel! I had a new Ace and tried it, better but still the round was released about 1/16ish short. I then ordered 2 GSG mags. and found they were worse! All my High end guns the bullet is entering the chamber prior to the release of the case by the mag lips. If I recall my other .22s like High Standard (gave away to my kids) did the same. I then cycled the Nelson letting the spring close the slide with new SK ammo that was never chambered and noticed the bullets had dings dents and shaving marks on them indicating they are not aligned well with the chamber! So I decided to make my own conversion. Moving the barrel back on the frame slightly more that 1/4" did not help the Marvel or GSG mag but the Ace did hold the case while the bullet was in the chamber. Latter when I made my dummy barrel to test the clambering with an actual chamber not the .3105 hole reamed for the barrel liner. I found the amount I moved the barrel back was too much and now the increased angle prevented the round from going in far enough to be released by the Ace mag lips. Moving the barrel forward about 1/32" will allow the round to chamber. I will now cut the rim recess in the slide which is .045" (I will determine exact about by measuring the height of the rim when in a chambered barrel) that might help but I will wait to set the exact barrel location as would be determined by the slide stop pin. I have made the ejector, a modified version of the 1911 ejector and cut the slide for it to fit. Extractor and firing pin and needed springs have been ordered from Nelson, haven't arrived yet.
 However I am interested in the Jagermann mag if it's not the same as the one used by Nelson.

Froneck

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 74

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by Kermit Workman 4/3/2021, 12:20 pm

The Jagemann magazines are not the same as Nelson's. The Jagemann are plastic.
The following is from memory of 4-5 years ago, so take it with precaution. I was at Camp Perry and Marvel had the Jagemann magazines. They would not fit in my Dworak unit because the bottom of the breechface was hitting on the rear of the magazine lip. This was not allowing the slide to go into full battery.  The guy at Marvel was interested to see if he could make it work. He ground off part of the right rear lip so that the slide would fully close. I tried the magazine while at Perry and it worked, so I bought a second one and modified it as well.
 For kicks and giggles I took a Colt, a GSG and Jagemann magazine to Nelsons booth on Commercial Row. IIRC, the Colt magazine would fit the Nelson unit and the Jagemann would not. The bottom of the Nelson slide was not compatible with the width and height of the Jagemann magazine lips. Nelson was interested in what would work with their conversions.
 Today ,I measured from the rear corner of the magazine, along the lip to the release point of three magazines. The dimensions were  Colt Ace  .880, GSG .360 and Jagemann .620. So the Ace magazine would hold the cartridge rim much longer than the others two. I also observed the angle of the ramp where the cartridge rim must ride up is quite different between magazines . The Ace magazine holds the cartridge rim much longer but then the rim must rise very quickly to enter the chamber. The GSG and Jagemann are much shallower.
 I also looked at my HS Victor. The High Standard magazine does hold the cartridge rim much longer than any of the 1911 magazines. I put a round into the magazines and placed the rim at the release point of the magazine lips. The HS does control the round until the nose of a RN bullet is in the chamber. But the Kart and Dworak has a ramp below the chamber and the HS does not.

Kermit Workman

Posts : 115
Join date : 2011-06-11
Age : 66
Location : Lenore, WV

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by Froneck 4/3/2021, 1:44 pm

I know the HS does not have a ramp below the chamber, I've made quite a few barrels for the HS. Prior to modifying a .3105 reamer to cut the barrel hole flush with the ramp the home made barrel has a 7 mm hole at the end (7mm is slightly larger than the size if the .22 rim) and ramp was not made yet. When testing with .22 round in Ace mag the slide contacts the rim at the top, as the slide closes the round being pushed from the top nose dived and would hit the barrel on the bottom. Later I completed the ramp  so now the ramp directs the bullet up and into the chamber. With the barrel moved forward slightly I can load a .22 part way into the chamber but if I close the slide too slow it will not, what happens because I don't have an extractor nor recess for the rim of the cartridge cut into the slide yet the mag. follower pushes the round up too far. But the recess and the extractor will prevent that.
 Any idea where I can buy the Jagemann magazines?

Froneck

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 74

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by Kermit Workman 4/3/2021, 2:33 pm

A quick Goog;e shows Optic Planet carries them but they are out of stock. Jagemann Sporting Group shows magazine with specs.
 Marvel does not list them but a call might turn something up.

Kermit Workman

Posts : 115
Join date : 2011-06-11
Age : 66
Location : Lenore, WV

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by Froneck 4/4/2021, 10:10 am

jjfitch wrote:What you are researching is "controlled feed" but the magazine is doing all the controlling. 

It might help if you Google: "Adjusting the feed lips on the Hi Standard military magazines by Jim Barta". 

It may not be exactly what will fix your issue but might get you in the ball park!

Smiles,
Not exactly! As with my photos the rim of the .22 case exits the lips too soon. It requires the bullet to jump a gap of over 1/4" so that there is a chance it will hit the sides of the chamber. Checking a batch of never shot SK .22 ammo by letting the slide go with the release with a Nelson conversion I noticed quite a bit of ding, dents and scrapes on the bullets. To avoid accidental discharge I used a new Caspian frame  with no hammer or sear installed. Even the Ace came up short yet all my high end .22s and the High Standard the bullet was in the chamber prior to release by the magazine, no bending will help. The lips are simply too short or barrel too far forward. That is what I'm doing to correct the issue in building my own conversion.
 Kermit, I downloaded the specs from Jagemann, nothing there except description. Looking at the photo the magazine looks Identical on the top to the one I have from Nelson.

Froneck

Posts : 1029
Join date : 2014-04-05
Age : 74

Back to top Go down

.22 Magazine help Empty Re: .22 Magazine help

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum