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Match Director/Club Requirement via Covid-19

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Post by Allgoodhits 4/9/2021, 7:40 am

Curious as to thoughts on appropriateness of a Match Director as a prerequisite of permitting one to enter a PP match that the competitor "must" indicate whether or not they have been vaccinated? This being a Match Director requirement, not Club Policy requirement.


Last edited by Allgoodhits on 4/9/2021, 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by cdrt 4/9/2021, 9:01 am

Business as usual here in Texas. Not a question I am asking.
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Post by John Dervis 4/9/2021, 9:03 am

I have suspected for a while that proof will be the norm to do most anything in life like sporting events, school events etc. With that being said, I’m pretty far down on the list of people who were eligible to get the vaccine in the first place so have no schedule in mind when I will get it.  That is coupled with the fact that the “experts” have been wrong at pretty much every turn of this thing so I don’t feel a panicked need to get one.  About the only reason I will is because the above stated requirement that I will have to so I can do stuff.  If match directors will be requiring this, it would be good to know in advance because I’m sure many people like me don’t have it yet.

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Post by Allgoodhits 4/9/2021, 9:21 am

In Virginia were are under mandate to 6 ft social distance, unless persons are vaccinated, then 3 ft distancing. At 6 ft we have to use every other firing point. At 3 ft we can use all. Scoring, on the line is an issue regardless, due to congestion.

I suppose the match director can ask, there is no duty on the shooter to answer, as isn't that information protected under medical history privacy? I guess the match director could then refuse one to shoot, unless the line is not full and there are positions available to permit 6 ft spacing.

I am not the match director. I am confident that they are operating with good intentions, by trying to permit as many persons as possible to shoot. Some other shooters have reached out to me, about how dare these questions. I would think that if a vaccinated shooter was put between nonvaccinated shooters, the line could be filled. Hey grateful, that we can shoot, we'll figure it out. Our Club policy is to follow State protocols. I am not sure that grants authority to ask about someone's personal medical history. Oh well ...
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Post by Allen Barnett 4/9/2021, 9:25 am

Here is my 2 cents on this subject of the "COVID PASSSPORT".  I have been vacinated and do have my "PASSPORT".  But unless it becomes FEDERAL LAW or STATE LAW it is none of anybody's business but me as to wether or not I have been vacinated. If it is not LAW then I don't care who you are you do not have the right to know ANYTHING about my medical condition(s)!!!!!  This is just me talking but I have kind of always walked to the beat of a different drummer when it comes to my rights as guaranteed by the United States Constitutiion and it Admendments.

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Post by Allen Barnett 4/9/2021, 9:32 am

Allgoodhits: to answer your question your personal medical information is protected under FEDERAL law by the HIPPA(?) act.  For medical information to be released to a third party requires your written authorization.

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Post by Allgoodhits 4/9/2021, 9:48 am

Allen Barnett wrote:Allgoodhits: to answer your question your personal medical information is protected under FEDERAL law by the HIPPA(?) act.  For medical information to be released to a third party requires your written authorization.

That is my understanding as well. The Match Bulletin uses the word MUST provide. I reached out to the MD, and stated, that if you ask me as a friend, what my feelings are about the Covid-19 "shots" I would give my opinion. I would also, tell you whether or not I have had said shots. However, if you ask me as an official in order to gain entry or access, I would tell you that is none of your business. I don't want to shoot myself in the foot, as I want to shoot. 

Sadly, we have one of the best Bullseye facilities in the mid Atlantic, yet have few Club Members interested in shooting bullseye. By far most of our shooters are nonmembers. Last we don't want to lose our match director either over this. He is trying to be extra cautious, and I understand that too.
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Post by Allgoodhits 4/9/2021, 10:27 am

Thanks for the healthy discussion, both public and private, on the topic. 

All I know is, that we have one smart, virus. It knows whether or not you are walking into or out of a restaurant and when you are seated. It knows when you are actually shooting, vs walking in a line to score targets, and pass one another while scoring etc.  We can't make physical contact but we handle targets and score cards.  Again, we'll figure it out.
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Post by jjfitch 4/9/2021, 10:52 am

HIPPA is a 4th Amendment right!

The vaccination only protects those vaccinated!

The best practice is to require masks and social distancing and thorough cleaning following use of range and equipment. 

You county health department will assist with best practices for your venue to protect participants and operation. 

Smkiles,
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Post by Wobbley 4/9/2021, 11:19 am

First, I refuse to shoot if a mask is required on the line.  I’ll wear a mask when scoring but not while shooting.  

Vaccinations slow the spread of disease, by giving immunity to a portion of the population faster than natural spread. 

There are EPA approved products and cleaning practices are effective But these are not normal procedures and some require time to work measured in minutes.  These are not something to just “spray and pray”.
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Post by Allen Barnett 4/9/2021, 12:31 pm

Just to add more thoughts. I am not against wearing masks and social distancing and I do so when in public.  If the match bulletin spells things out before I go to a match then it is my opition to decide if I wish to attend under the conditions of the match bulletin, just don't suprise me when I get there, let me make my choice(s) before I travel 2-3 hours to attend a match.

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Post by TexasShooter 4/9/2021, 5:24 pm

I don't see this as a question of mask vs no mask, or the efficacy of the vaccine, or anything else to do with COVID. I see it as a question about whether or not a match director can run the match in the way that he/she feels provides the safest environment possible for the participants.

I don't have to agree with that match director's opinion of what makes a safe environment, but if I want to shoot in that match I should respect the rules of that match...

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Post by Olde Pilot 4/9/2021, 5:50 pm

Roger That!

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Post by TonyH 4/9/2021, 6:40 pm

As is posted above, and is my understanding, only the vaccinated person is protected, and does not prevent that person from carrying and spreading the virus.  If that is so, what safety does the “vaccine passport” provide for the other shooters on the line?
There has been so much misinformation spread about this virus, I am not even sure who to believe anymore. I, for one, as a MD, will NOT intrude on anyone’s privacy rights by asking for one and probably will not attend a match where I am being asked or one....
This is not the first, nor will it be last pandemic that humanity has faced since its existence and seems to have survived for millennia. However, the sheeple seem to be ok giving up their freedoms to government demands......what happens with the next time a virus like this comes along......
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Post by CO1Mtn 4/10/2021, 9:56 am

Can I wear a clear plastic face shield instead of a face diaper? That way, people can at least see who they are talking to. How am I supposed to make friends and meet people with a mask on? Isn't that the whole point of a sport? If we are all going to hide under our beds for the rest of our lives then I might as well be dead anyway. It used to be that only skiers and bank robbers wore a mask. Next time someone asks me if I've been vaccinated, the answer is going to be "what am I, cattle?" I'm not getting that vaccine, ever. I don't give a care about an overblown flu virus.

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Post by CR10X 4/10/2021, 1:18 pm

Well,  you know I've be reading this with interest and I do have one observation to consider.

If the Match Director has certain requirements (any) and some people don't like those requirements, then some people may decide not to shoot. 

However if a Match Director decides that he doesn't want to put on a match, for whatever reason; then NO one gets to shoot. 

Thus ends my participation in this thread, reading or otherwise.

CR

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Post by Olde Pilot 4/10/2021, 1:53 pm

+1

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Post by Allgoodhits 4/10/2021, 6:22 pm

I shot a match today in Annapolis, MD. They filled all firing points.
There work around was:

Mask not required to be worn at firing point, while shooting.
Mask must be worn at all other times.

They had a very simple "effective" plastic barrier between firing points. The barrier did not extend onto or over the bench. They simply screwed a horizontal 2 x 2 to the top of the bench and permitted it to extend toward the rear about 24". This acted like a "divider" between shooters at the shooting bench level. This range had a covered firing line, so the they also extended a 2 x 2 overhead to rear, parallel, and above the other one. They then fastened clear poly paper between the 2 x 2 forming a simple curtain divider between shooters. It was simple, and apparently met whatever requirements they needed to achieve in their State and Club.
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Post by jmdavis 4/13/2021, 10:04 am

We have 38 firing points and we fill every other one. This meets the state requirement for social distancing. As long as they do not fog eye protection I am neutral on shooters wearing masks on the line. Anything that does cause eye pro to fog presents a safety hazard in my opinion. 

I am also stating the following in my match emails:



Important –by attending this tournament, you acknowledge and accept the risk in attending during the COVID-19 outbreak.

We are still operating under Covid Restrictions in Virginia. We will be shooting every other point. This limits Cavalier to 18 shooters on the line. Please let me know  if you plan to shoot so that I can make sure that we have spaces for everyone. Masks will not be required on the line and are up to the shooter to determine when not shooting. Please observe the state's social distancing advice.
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Post by Schaumannk 4/13/2021, 1:12 pm

I think there is always a danger in a match director requiring something of the shooters that is outside of the various rule books.   

It certainly is within his rights, but you have to ask yourself, where is this coming from?    Is it the match director?   The club?    The county?   The state?   Or the CDC?   

If shooters are traveling together in a closed vehicle, it makes no sense to separate them on the firing line.   

The CDC has said, the risk of transmission from both surfaces and outdoors are negligible.   

Our entire American way of life is based on individual assumption of risk
for adults.    It seems to me that Covid 19 has deliberately turned that bedrock principle on it’s head.   

If you can ask if someone has been vaccinated, at what point does the next question become: How long ago?    And have you had an antibody test or a booster?   Show me the proof of all three?  

I’m not sure I want to go down this road.  I would prefer people excessively worried about Covid just stay home.

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Post by mikemyers 4/13/2021, 3:52 pm

My opinion?  Starting around April or so last year, I just stopped going to the range, period.  I was more afraid of catching Covid-19 than upset that I couldn't shoot.  What I thought would be a few months delay was more important to me than ruining or losing the rest of my life.  I got my vaccinations Jan 3 and Jan 31, and  three weeks after that I was back to going to the range.

If I was the only person there, I didn't wear a mask.  If there were more people around I always wore one, not to protect myself, but to make THEM feel more comfortable.  I wore it while shooting too - no big deal.  I just didn't think about it, any more than I think about my shirt, it was just what I wore.

Regarding this discussion, while I agree others shouldn't limit my freedom, I accept that they CAN limit my freedom when it involves THEM.  If they don't want me to come into their store, or fly, or any other similar situations without wearing a mask, it is then my choice whether to wear a mask, or go someplace else.

If the person putting on the match doesn't want to be around maskless people, he can either tell them to leave, or he can tell everyone he is leaving, and someone else can run the match.  If I hadn't yet gotten my vaccinations, I dealt with it my own way, by avoiding what I considered dangerous situations.


If a cruise line wants to bar people who have not yet been vaccinated, it is their right to do so, providing they say this up front.  
If my range required masks (which it does not) I would wear one, or go elsewhere.
As things are, they leave it up to each individual to decide, what he or she wants to do.
Since I have already gotten both shots, I now mostly feel "safe".  

I agree with whoever it was up above, who indicated this is just the beginning, and at some point in the future, a "vaccine passport" may be required - so people who get vaccinated should save the card they got at the time of the vaccination with the vaccine information.  Take a photo of it, and store it some place safe.  Think of it as being like a "driver's license" maybe, or a "passport" - not having either can cause a lot of grief.
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