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Long Line advice/words of wisdom needed

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rsp
zanemoseley
Fezzik68
CR10X
Oleg G
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Post by xman 5/10/2021, 5:35 pm

Currently a Marksman shooting a M41, been shooting personal bests in 3 of the 4 last 2700s thanks to steady improvements on the short line. Its the long line that is just throwing me.

I practice every week at least 10 SF targets for the last 12 weeks or more and the practices are kind of c**p too. I have done the focus on the bull, tried focus on the dot. Have raised arm to bull, lowered arm to bull. Have even tried a dot bounce technique 12 to 6 that takes the dot through the bull till I am settled on the center.

I just cant seem to not have misses on a target. Most of the time it is 3 misses. Sometime less, sometimes more. Rarely have had zero misses. I time my 10 shot strings and use up about 5-6 minutes. Am not afraid to lower if I get shakes or wobbles or am not confident about my hold pattern or if holding too long.(Oxygen starvation)

My foot work is good as it is the same in TF and RF. I check my breathing each shot, hold half in at the point of aiming. 

I suspect my triggerwork/grip might be the source. I can call 8 out of 10 shots most of the time. Sometime the recoil is true ..up and down back to the bull. I have noticed on some shots that my recoil is in the shape of a horizontal comma like loop going to the right. (Am right handed). Those are not necessarily the misses.

Some other shooters have noticed that my follow through is really short after firing.

Next practice I think I am going to make like the SF target is a turning target on each shot and not aim as long. Might is a disaster but have to keep trying things.

Any words of wisdom from the forum?
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Post by DA/SA 5/10/2021, 5:59 pm

What happens when you dry fire at the 50 yd target? 

Does the dot stay centered in the scope?

Does the dot jump around the target when the hammer falls?
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Post by xman 5/10/2021, 6:25 pm

DA/SA wrote:What happens when you dry fire at the 50 yd target? 

Does the dot stay centered in the scope?

Does the dot jump around the target when the hammer falls?
During prep or at the start of practices my dry firing generally reflects what happens during live fire. Various dot movements from staying dead on center or some movement mainly to 5 or 6 o'clock but still in the black or edging to the white. I use the smallest dot possible especially for SF as recovery/reacquisition is not as critical as it is in TF and RF.
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Post by CO1Mtn 5/10/2021, 6:36 pm

Does the trigger have an overtravel screw, and is it adjusted properly to remove overtravel?

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Post by SteveT 5/10/2021, 6:45 pm

If I understand what you are saying, you can hold the dot in the black for at least a few seconds, but shots are going out of the scoring rings. That means your hold is fine and you are throwing shots with the trigger.

If you see the dot jump out during dry fire then work on how you pull the trigger. To me this is as much a mental approach as anything physical. Trigger finger position and grip can have an affect but it's usually mentally trying to pull the trigger really fast while the dot is in the middle. Use a bigger dot. You don't need to shoot center-X's to shoot Expert / Master scores, you just need to keep most of them in the black.

If you don't see the dot jump in dry fire that means you are pulling the trigger differently when live firing. Don't do that. Fire dry and live back to back and make them the same.

If your short line groups are all in the black then use that trigger pull for slow fire.
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Post by xman 5/10/2021, 6:45 pm

CO1Mtn wrote:Does the trigger have an overtravel screw, and is it adjusted properly to remove overtravel?
The overtravel screw barely shows any space. Might be about 1/16 of an inch could be less. Trigger breaks clean at 2 lbs. Was measured at state match 2 weeks ago with weights. On my own RCBS spring gauge beaks at 32 oz. sharp.
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Post by SteveT 5/10/2021, 7:09 pm

Very short over-travel can make jerking the trigger worse. When the trigger gets mashed hard and fast then hits the stop, it pushes the gun further.
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Post by xman 5/10/2021, 7:34 pm

SteveT wrote:Very short over-travel can make jerking the trigger worse. When the trigger gets mashed hard and fast then hits the stop, it pushes the gun further.
My M41 has about 1/8 inch of what I call uptake, some call it creep I guess, then it stops. That's when I know I now have the trigger ready to fire with weight/movement of my finger with hopefully minimal dot movement.

I would say that I RARELY mash/jerk/yank the trigger on my misses or other low score shots. I have enough lifetime trigger pulls to know the difference in smooth vs jerks.  lol!
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Post by Robuc 5/10/2021, 8:08 pm

Your wobble area or arc of movement is not as bad as bad as it appears.   Have faith and trust in that.  Try seeing how far you can move the trigger without firing a round. Every discharge will be a surprise.  No time to flinch of pull off.

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Post by xman 5/10/2021, 8:22 pm

Robuc wrote:Your wobble area or arc of movement is not as bad as bad as it appears.   Have faith and trust in that.  Try seeing how far you can move the trigger without firing a round. Every discharge will be a surprise.  No time to flinch of pull off.
Honestly I cant even feel/sense the trigger move when it goes bang. I have had close calls when I bailed on a shot because I knew the hold was not right and the trigger was a hairsbreadth about to go. It even surprise me that I could still bail given the amount of pressure I had on the trigger.
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Post by Schaumannk 5/10/2021, 8:32 pm

“Am not afraid to lower if I get shakes or wobbles or am not confident about my hold pattern or if holding too long.(Oxygen starvation)”




Your hold may not be as good for as long as you think it is.    Scope each shot.   Time yourself or film yourself so you can know exactly how long you hold the gun up on the good shots and the bad ones.   
If you aren’t putting the gun down til you can’t hold your breath any longer that is way too long.   




Where are the bad shots going?   Did I miss that?


Could be as simple as floppy wrist.   

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Post by chiz1180 5/10/2021, 8:40 pm

Video yourself shooting SF, watch back after you are done and see what you are doing different on each shot.
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Post by xman 5/10/2021, 8:49 pm

Schaumannk wrote:“Am not afraid to lower if I get shakes or wobbles or am not confident about my hold pattern or if holding too long.(Oxygen starvation)”

Your hold may not be as good for as long as you think it is.    Scope each shot.   Time yourself or film yourself so you can know exactly how long you hold the gun up on the good shots and the bad ones.   
If you aren’t putting the gun down til you can’t hold your breath any longer that is way too long.   

Where are the bad shots going?   Did I miss that?

Could be as simple as floppy wrist.   
I call the shot then scope it. About 8 out of 10 are where expected clockwise but score location might be right 5 out of 10. I probably average a 7-9 second hold before bailing. 

Time wise I likely average a 20-35 seconds per shot as I work my process as it currently.

The bad shots a I define right now them are the misses, I can live with them as I corral them via technique. Usually right side of target if they hit the target at all.
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Post by Schaumannk 5/10/2021, 8:52 pm

xman wrote:
Schaumannk wrote:“Am not afraid to lower if I get shakes or wobbles or am not confident about my hold pattern or if holding too long.(Oxygen starvation)”

Your hold may not be as good for as long as you think it is.    Scope each shot.   Time yourself or film yourself so you can know exactly how long you hold the gun up on the good shots and the bad ones.   
If you aren’t putting the gun down til you can’t hold your breath any longer that is way too long.   

Where are the bad shots going?   Did I miss that?

Could be as simple as floppy wrist.   
I call the shot then scope it. About 8 out of 10 are where expected clockwise but score location might be right 5 out of 10. I probably average a 7-9 second hold before bailing. 

Time wise I likely average a 20-35 seconds per shot as I work my process as it currently.

The bad shots a I define right now them are the misses, I can live with them as I corral them via technique. Usually right side of target if they hit the target at all.
Try bailing at the six second mark.    Also be extremely careful to keep your thumb off the gun.

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Post by xman 5/10/2021, 9:06 pm





Try bailing at the six second mark.    Also be extremely careful to keep your thumb off the gun.

I can do the 6 max second bail and will try the no thumb pressure on the thumb rest next practice.
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Post by robert84010 5/10/2021, 9:49 pm

Can you shoot 10 consecutive 10's on the T/R target at 25 yards? Big training step that should be accomplished first before breaking down 50 yard shots. walk before run.

The order of the training steps in "the book" are for a reason.

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Post by xman 5/10/2021, 10:02 pm

robert84010 wrote:Can you shoot 10 consecutive 10's on the T/R target at 25 yards? Big training step that should be accomplished first before breaking down 50 yard shots. walk before run.

The order of the training steps in "the book" are for a reason.
Currently I drop about 23% of points available in TF and RF so no I do not shoot 10 consecutive 10s at 25yds yet. However it is steadily improving.

At 50ys I drop about 51% of points available.

Both are averages over the last 5 2700s.

Overall I have gained approx. 150-200 points over the past 2 months. Pretty much all due to short line improvements.
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Post by Oleg G 5/11/2021, 6:57 am

Robert asked the key question: can you shoot 10 consecutive shots in the 10 ring on the B-8 target at 25 yards? The question is NOT, can you shoot a clean TF or RF target. Take 10 individual slow fire shots at the B-8 target at 25 yards. Are they all 10s? If not, work on your technical and mental skill until all 10 shots are inside the 10 ring.

Here is a well-kept secret that only the masters and high masters know, but I will share it with you (very confidentially): Place all 10 shots inside the 10 ring on a B-8 target. Then replace the B-8 target with a B-16 target (slow fire target at 25 yards). All 10 shots will be well inside the 8 ring. Your score will be likely 85 or higher! Moreover, this means that at 50 yards, your scores will be all inside the black on the B-6 target.

You have shot 10s before at 25 yards. After you shot each ten (in training) stop and ask yourself: "Exactly what did I just do to shoot that 10?" Give yourself a detailed answer. Do this after each 10. DO NOT ask yourself this question when you shot a bad shot. There is no need to learn how shoot bad shots.

Also - do you dry fire only at the range before your live fire sessions? I kind of get this impression reading your posts on this thread. If this is correct, start dry firing at home. Dry fire as much as possible and call each dry fire shot. If I have misinterpreted what you wrote, I apologize.
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Post by CR10X 5/11/2021, 9:09 am

XMAN:

While you stated: 

I practice every week at least 10 SF targets for the last 12 weeks or more and the practices are kind of c**p too. I have done the focus on the bull, tried focus on the dot. Have raised arm to bull, lowered arm to bull. Have even tried a dot bounce technique 12 to 6 that takes the dot through the bull till I am settled on the center.

I just cant seem to not have misses on a target. Most of the time it is 3 misses. Sometime less, sometimes more. Rarely have had zero misses. I time my 10 shot strings and use up about 5-6 minutes. Am not afraid to lower if I get shakes or wobbles or am not confident about my hold pattern or if holding too long.(Oxygen starvation)

My foot work is good as it is the same in TF and RF. I check my breathing each shot, hold half in at the point of aiming. 

I suspect my triggerwork/grip might be the source. I can call 8 out of 10 shots most of the time. Sometime the recoil is true ..up and down back to the bull. I have noticed on some shots that my recoil is in the shape of a horizontal comma like loop going to the right. (Am right handed). Those are not necessarily the misses.

I'd like to make a few observations and comments.  But without seeing what someone is doing in person, things like this are difficult to do. 

First, you talk about trying different things, but it doesn't sound like a training focus but just trying "something out".  When we approach a new technique it will take approximately 3,000 or so correct actions to even begin to ingrain the process.  I tried focusing on the target versus the dot for over a year before deciding what was looking better for me.  If you are going to try something, then make sure its over a long enough time to gather enough data to make a valid comparison or judgement.  Journals are recommended for a reason.  Start one if you don't have one yet.  

Second, you seem to be approaching how the dot is looking on the target rather than focusing (really looking and seeing) how the dot is moving (the wobble) throughout the entire shot process.  Always focus (pun intended" on seeing the wobble, not the position at any point.  To do so will probably make you conscious mind "take a snapshot" of what you wanted to see and you will miss the next few refreshes of the visual image in your mind because you are "seeing" the still picture, not the current one.  This is probably reinforced by the fact that you have "misses" and can't see the deviation from the wobble that is showing you the wobble is not approaching the center or smallest area.

Third, compounding this is that if you have having misses and dropping that many points even at the short line, you are NOT keep the gun parallel to your intended line of sight.  The dot will not tell you how much you are angling the gun unless you see the relationship of how the dot moves relative to the scope.  This is the limitation of dot sights, as it has a curved mirror that combines the aiming (pistol position) errors with the wobble area (dot just moving around).  New shooters then embark on the path to disaster by then using the wrist, fingers or arm to try and control (move the dot) back to the center and then try to hold the dot within the visible area of the tube.  This creates a lot of bad habits from just trying to "keep the gun still" rather than "keeping the gun aligned, parallel to the intended line of sight".

I know that may be confusing, but just try using iron sights for a while and you can better see how you are messing up or not messing up the "angular" position of the gun by how the front sight stays in the rear notch throughout the shot process.  Dryfire a lot with open / iron sights and learn how to create a unit of the hand, wrist, forearm, elbow, upper arm, shoulder joint and scapula into a single unit, not to hold the gun "still" but the just keep the front sight in the center of the rear sight notch all the way through the shot.  

Maintain complete focus on the front sight, and let the relationship with the rear sight be in your vision, but not the focus.  This will teach you to hold the gun parallel with your target area while you learn how to operate the trigger like "it's your job not to mess it up" (Quoting Will Smith in Hitch).

Anyway, misses are the result of not seeing what you need to see to not shot that shot, so also work on actually seeing the process so you call call the shot.  The end result, later, of being able to call the shot is really the ability to see which shots are not progressing according to your "good shot" movie (memory and visualization) and simply knowing that means we need to start over.

So, I know this is probably a lot more rambling than you wanted, but (and I've never told anyone this before on the list) my main reason for posting responses is not really to try and tell someone else what to do or try to be smart or anything like that.  It's simply the best opportunity I have to think about and try to restate in so many words what I do, how I think about shooting a shot and most importantly remind ME what I need to see, think and do to help MY shooting.  Its funny that sometimes I shoot some of my best targets lately after make a few comments that remind me of what I used to know.  Thanks for the opportunity to remind myself of things I need to review.

CR

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Post by Schaumannk 5/11/2021, 9:16 am

“New shooters then embark on the path to disaster by then using the wrist, fingers or arm to try and control (move the dot) back to the center and then try to hold the dot within the visible area of the tube. “






***Upvote a hundred times***

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Post by xman 5/11/2021, 11:58 am

CR10X wrote:
I'd like to make a few observations and comments.  But without seeing what someone is doing in person, things like this are difficult to do. 

First, you talk about trying different things, but it doesn't sound like a training focus but just trying "something out".  When we approach a new technique it will take approximately 3,000 or so correct actions to even begin to ingrain the process.  I tried focusing on the target versus the dot for over a year before deciding what was looking better for me.  If you are going to try something, then make sure its over a long enough time to gather enough data to make a valid comparison or judgement.  Journals are recommended for a reason.  Start one if you don't have one yet.  

CR
CR

When I say I try different things, I am looking for a pattern/sign of improvement when doing those different things. I try the scientific method ...one thing at a time for dry fire sessions, several live practices (100 shots min.) and at least 2 2700s. It has worked for my short line scores. I refer to my journal for scores, technique shifts/changes, the  environment of live practices and matches. Dry fire sessions are logged too, approx 50 dry fires a session (2-3x a week on average) using a wall anchor for a snap cap at a scaled black spot on a wall (between the size of a dime and nickel). I write my thoughts and observations for the live and dry fire sessions.

I am NOT discounting the other info you posted. Those are harder to address/apply, but I will print out for referral and how to approach them.

Am not expecting miracles. LOL. Other shooters have said to me..it will all fall into place and voila, the improvements will come in chunks.
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Post by CR10X 5/11/2021, 12:19 pm

Ok, sounds like you have a program going, so that's great.  Thanks for clearing that up and adding the background. It helps.  Typing is the worst way to communicate. Just remember for dryfiring, and live firing too, its about quality not quantity.   A lot of shooters will just stand there and dryfire, just clicking the gun without a real plan or reflection.

If you have a great dryfire (or live fire) shot.  That's the time to stop and really review what you saw, felt, experienced.  Note what you really saw and review that like a rerun before your next time.  Revel in the success and let your mind know your like that, a lot.  Say "I liked that, a lot!" out loud if you feel like it.

The main thing (I think at this point) is dry firing with open sights on a blank wall (or live fire on a blank target) and really see what's happening at the gun, not the wobble or movement relative to some black spot out there on the range.  There's probably a lot going on with the grip, stance, trigger, etc., and that's what's causing those extreme angular excursions that create wild shots (misses).  

Again, don't fall into the trap of chase the dot with your wrist, grip, arm or hand.  Get the body set as unit and comfortable and just move your feet around to get that comfortable position over the center of your target area (each time before you start your actual dryfire or shot).  Then you can just watch the wobble and look for the excursions caused by milking grip, changing pressure, trigger operation, etc. (I made some comments in the "Steadying the Dot" and "Getting to Master topics as well.)  There may be 1, 2 or more things moving the angular position of the gun during your shot process.  Work on the parts (grip pressure, trigger to rear, consistency of pressure increase, etc. to try and identify each part that needs more consistency. 

Misses that are not seen are generally uncontrolled (jerks) of the last part of the trigger process combined with a blink that indicated anticipation of the shot or trying to "pick it off" because we saw something "great" for a millisecond.  We want consistent grip and trigger process as long as everything looks "good" as we're seeing the wobble get smaller.  That will lead to shooting inside our hold (wobble) area.  And that is the "really great" thing to happen. 

Also, blank wall / target work helps you focus on seeing the wobble and sights and not distracting the attention to how much everything is moving.  Everybody moves, all the time.  Look at any SCATT trace.  If it looks completely still, its a visual picture we've captured and stored and are remembering.  

Anyway, the biggest chunk of "aha" will be when one actually sees the front sight / dot start to rise in recoil and sees the muzzle flash of the shot.  

So, I hope something I mentioned will trigger your next improvement.  There are a lot of steps and plateaus and slips back down, recoveries and improvements on the climb to any shooting goals.


Last edited by CR10X on 5/11/2021, 1:01 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : I still can't type for carp and this is a really good subject that I want to try and get the words and ideas stated the best I can.)

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Post by Fezzik68 5/11/2021, 1:19 pm

Your advice is greatly appreciated. I've reached a plateau, and a high master just showed me a game plan?
Time to take the dot off, buy more #6 drywall plugs (and find a B-8 target or two). Thank you for the kick in the butt I needed. My summer just got fun.

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Post by zanemoseley 5/11/2021, 1:50 pm

If you're dropping 50% of the points at 50 yards then I guarantee you're flinching even if you think you aren't. Do some ball & dummy training to observe your flinch in action. The only thing that makes 50yd SF more difficult to shoot is that the black aiming area isn't proportionally larger than the 25yd target so it appears to be harder to hold but the black only goes out to the 8 ring where the 25yd SF target has the black out to the 7 ring. Most people actually shoot slightly better at the 50yd SF than they do on the 25yd SF due to the more forgiving ring sizes.

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Post by Schaumannk 5/11/2021, 2:01 pm

Pardon the input from a non high master,   But flinching, thumbing,   Moving other fingers, jerking, are all different ways of *anticipating the shot*

Ball and dummy helps a lot, also, so does dry firing, and a dry fire trainer.   


The reason I recommend keeping your hold time down, is because your hold does deteriorate.   And quickly for most of us.   Also if you haven’t shot by the five second mark, it is because you have adjusted something, usually by moving your wrist to bring your iron sights back into the bull or your dot back into the center.   Either that or you have tightened your grip on the gun itself instead of moving your trigger finger.   (And only your trigger finger)

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