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Long Line advice/words of wisdom needed

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Long Line advice/words of wisdom needed - Page 2 Empty Long Line advice/words of wisdom needed

Post by xman 5/10/2021, 5:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

Currently a Marksman shooting a M41, been shooting personal bests in 3 of the 4 last 2700s thanks to steady improvements on the short line. Its the long line that is just throwing me.

I practice every week at least 10 SF targets for the last 12 weeks or more and the practices are kind of c**p too. I have done the focus on the bull, tried focus on the dot. Have raised arm to bull, lowered arm to bull. Have even tried a dot bounce technique 12 to 6 that takes the dot through the bull till I am settled on the center.

I just cant seem to not have misses on a target. Most of the time it is 3 misses. Sometime less, sometimes more. Rarely have had zero misses. I time my 10 shot strings and use up about 5-6 minutes. Am not afraid to lower if I get shakes or wobbles or am not confident about my hold pattern or if holding too long.(Oxygen starvation)

My foot work is good as it is the same in TF and RF. I check my breathing each shot, hold half in at the point of aiming. 

I suspect my triggerwork/grip might be the source. I can call 8 out of 10 shots most of the time. Sometime the recoil is true ..up and down back to the bull. I have noticed on some shots that my recoil is in the shape of a horizontal comma like loop going to the right. (Am right handed). Those are not necessarily the misses.

Some other shooters have noticed that my follow through is really short after firing.

Next practice I think I am going to make like the SF target is a turning target on each shot and not aim as long. Might is a disaster but have to keep trying things.

Any words of wisdom from the forum?
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Post by xman 5/11/2021, 2:20 pm

zanemoseley wrote:If you're dropping 50% of the points at 50 yards then I guarantee you're flinching even if you think you aren't. Do some ball & dummy training to observe your flinch in action. The only thing that makes 50yd SF more difficult to shoot is that the black aiming area isn't proportionally larger than the 25yd target so it appears to be harder to hold but the black only goes out to the 8 ring where the 25yd SF target has the black out to the 7 ring. Most people actually shoot slightly better at the 50yd SF than they do on the 25yd SF due to the more forgiving ring
Zane

I know I am not flinching. For a while one of my BE guns had issues with failure to feed at random times. So I only got a click and no bang. I saw no signs of a flinch or whatever when that happened. So was kind of like a live and dummy exercise.

I have a tremendous amount of trigger time over my career in various competitive disciplines. I don't get the yips or blood pounding in the ears in shoulder to shoulder shoots anymore. I used to but that was way way long ago.
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Post by zanemoseley 5/11/2021, 2:58 pm

Well I would try ball and dummy just to confirm again. The thing is if your hold is really bad enough to get you consistent 50% scores you've got some hellacious work ahead of you, in fact I would recommend holding for just 3 seconds max to break the shot. Basically just lower into the center of the target and break the shot, don't try to finesse the shot. When your averages are that low you really won't benefit from any kind of extended hold.

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Post by rsp 5/11/2021, 3:33 pm

Also a marksman and have the same symptoms although I'm shooting irons instead of a dot. SF can be so frustrating for me, more than once in a match I have "given up" and shot it exactly like two strings of TF, just because I know when I shoot at a TF pace I am at least going to be within the rings. My worst shots in SF have reliably been off to the right.

For me it *is* flinching, or anticipation, or whatever you want to call it. For me focus on calling has helped, because I have to SEE what I'm doing to get it right. I have seen marked improvement in practice doing this over the past 3 weeks. I am now shooting SF with the goal of each shot being primarily to watch it happen and call it accurately, and secondarily to shoot a 10. If I don't prioritize seeing the shot as #1, I simply WILL NOT see the details I need to see, and I will have some shots that seemed OK to me but were actually way off.

When I practice SF now I put a B-16 in front of me and stand up empty .22 cases on it to mark my calls. I scope after each call and move the case I just placed to match the real hole. I am happy if I don't have to move the new case more than an inch. I am grinning if I don't have to move it at all. If I have to move it a lot, even if the shot is a 10 I am disappointed and remind myself to focus harder on the sight movement during the next shot. I tell myself that in dry fire on a blank wall, I look at my sights as the hammer falls to see my trigger press disrupt them (or not disrupt them). In live fire I need to look at them for exactly the same reason, not just to place them over the bull.

Even if you are not flinching, and your eyes are physically staying open, it seems like your mental focus must be drifting away from the dot/target relationship at the instant of the shot. How else can a shot be off call? Assuming your equipment is good, the bullet goes where the dot was when the gun went bang. If you never saw the dot outside the rings, but the bullet is outside them, then by definition the dot did something you didn't see, right?

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Post by Schaumannk 5/11/2021, 3:43 pm

 “If you never saw the dot outside the rings, but the bullet is outside them, then by definition the dot did something you didn't see, right?”




I know this sounds a little trite,  but the dot doesn’t “do” anything.   


As an experiment try looking at the target, and ignoring the dot.   Focus on the trigger instead.   A clean quick smooth pull without moving anything else.   


The AMU used to run a training exercise as I understand it where they would have the shooter hold the gun,   Just focusing on the hold while someone else, either electronically or maybe with their hand over yours pulled the trigger.   


Guess where all the shots were when you didn’t know it was coming?    

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Post by robert84010 5/11/2021, 8:59 pm

zanemoseley wrote:Well I would try ball and dummy just to confirm again. The thing is if your hold is really bad enough to get you consistent 50% scores you've got some hellacious work ahead of you, in fact I would recommend holding for just 3 seconds max to break the shot. Basically just lower into the center of the target and break the shot, don't try to finesse the shot. When your averages are that low you really won't benefit from any kind of extended hold.
he didn't really say 50% scores, he said 50% of his lost points were at the long line. big difference.

Xman after you complete two portions of the book, 10 tens no matter how many shots it takes and then 10 ten's in a row at 25 I would recommend doing a process that Jon recommends. At 50 yards just start a slow pressure on the trigger while above the black and then slowly move into the black focusing on keeping the pressure building. Yes at the beginning there will get shots off early and out of the black but I bet you get zero misses. Then you will see improvement. 

Worth a try.

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Post by xman 5/11/2021, 9:18 pm

robert84010 wrote:
zanemoseley wrote:Well I would try ball and dummy just to confirm again. The thing is if your hold is really bad enough to get you consistent 50% scores you've got some hellacious work ahead of you, in fact I would recommend holding for just 3 seconds max to break the shot. Basically just lower into the center of the target and break the shot, don't try to finesse the shot. When your averages are that low you really won't benefit from any kind of extended hold.
he didn't really say 50% scores, he said 50% of his lost points were at the long line. big difference.

Xman after you complete two portions of the book, 10 tens no matter how many shots it takes and then 10 ten's in a row at 25 I would recommend doing a process that Jon recommends. At 50 yards just start a slow pressure on the trigger while above the black and then slowly move into the black focusing on keeping the pressure building. Yes at the beginning there will get shots off early and out of the black but I bet you get zero misses. Then you will see improvement. 

Worth a try.
Actually I believe I said I lose 50% of the AVAILABILE points on the long line. 200 points for the SF match and 100 points on the SF portion of the NMC. I manage to get about 150 +/- points. Getting about 3 misses per target.
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Post by robert84010 5/11/2021, 9:23 pm

well then I'll quote Zane "you've got some hellacious work ahead of you."  it should be done at the 25 yardline.  plain and simple.

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Post by zanemoseley 5/11/2021, 9:29 pm

Have you tried sandbagging your pistol at 50yds to see how it performs?

Have you tried shooting a 50yd SF target but at a TF pace? If I'm having issues with my trigger execution in a match I'll often revert to shooting doubles or triples, sometimes reverting back to a faster pace will let your subconscious/muscle memory take back over a bit and reduce the errant shots. Next time you go instead of shooting 10 SF targets maybe try alternating your pace and compare the scores, you might be surprised.

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Post by DA/SA 5/11/2021, 9:38 pm

It sounds a bit to me like you may be focused on round count rather than the quality of each shot when you say you shoot ten slow fire targets.

You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results!  Smile

Try shooting one slow fire target and focus all of your attention on making those ten shots count.
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Post by Jack H 5/12/2021, 1:38 am

xman wrote:
Actually I believe I said I lose 50% of the AVAILABILE points on the long line. 200 points for the SF match and 100 points on the SF portion of the NMC. I manage to get about 150 +/- points. Getting about 3 misses per target.

I would have you go back to 25 and shoot one shot at a time on a full size target back.
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Post by SteveT 5/12/2021, 8:03 am

I hope this doesn't come across as too harsh. That is not my intention, I just want to be completely clear. If you can hold the black for a few seconds at a time and you are putting shots in the 0-zone, you either have a gun/ammo problem or you ARE doing something to the trigger to throw those shots.
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Post by Jack H 5/12/2021, 12:22 pm

Scale down a target to 10 yards and see where those 0's are going.
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Long Line advice/words of wisdom needed - Page 2 Empty Today at the range.

Post by xman 5/12/2021, 3:09 pm

SteveT wrote:I hope this doesn't come across as too harsh. That is not my intention, I just want to be completely clear. If you can hold the black for a few seconds at a time and you are putting shots in the 0-zone, you either have a gun/ammo problem or you ARE doing something to the trigger to throw those shots.
Today at the range.

Confirmed 25yard zero. Pistol held in 2 hands resting grip on top of rest. Did not use smallest visible dot. 4Xs, 5-10s, 1 tight to 10 ring 9

Shot 10 T/R targets in a SF time frame at 25 yards. Applied some suggestions: Did not press thumb on grip thumb platform. Reduced my hold time to 5 seconds and under before shoot or bail.
Focused on bull under dot which is my preference.

77 shots in the black, 
22 were 10 or better.
23 in white
Majority (15) in the white shots left side of target patterned spread 12 to 6 o'clock mainly 7s and 8s, a few 5s and 6s..  Other shots (Cool in the white evenly spread around the target mostly 4 and 5 o'clock 5-8 ring.
Zero misses.

The max 5 second hold did not feel comfortable at all. 

Dry fire tonight, 100 trigger pulls.
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Post by zanemoseley 5/12/2021, 3:25 pm

Are you LH'ed or RH'ed?

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Post by xman 5/12/2021, 3:45 pm

zanemoseley wrote:Are you LH'ed or RH'ed?
Zane,

I am right handed. My self diagnoses on the wide shots to the left is may be due to my pushing the trigger a little bit while pulling it back. I do try to center the trigger on my finger pad and not in the finger joint. Position of the finger pad may be slightly toward the joint

My hands are large, but thin fingered. I do have cloth electrical tape and stair non slip grip tape to slightly build up the grip and I believe helps my hand hold. The wood grips felt slick and floated kind of in my hand.
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Long Line advice/words of wisdom needed - Page 2 Empty Today at the range.

Post by xman 5/14/2021, 3:30 pm

Today at the range, 50yards 5/14/21 (The following will be duped into my journal)

I decided to switch pistols and go with my Buckmark today. It is my backup BE pistol and my EIC gun minus the dot of course. The trigger is 3 lbs as opposed to my M41 at 2 lbs. This is figuring that the lighter trigger on the M41 might be a source to my habitual misses. The Buckmark is perhaps 2-3 ozs lighter than the M41. 

Shot 100 rounds on 10 50yds targets for record. Results:

More shots in the black on first 7 targets. some in the white and minimal ..2 and under misses on the 1st 7 targets. Last 3 targets were very poor. A few in the black, some in the white and lots of misses.

I attribute the poor 3 targets to the way the bench is set up at the range. The bench top is right at my armpit level. I am 6'3" and the bench top makes for a very awkward pistol down position for my arm and shoulder between shots. I have noticed this before and I try to work out the induced shoulder kink when walking down range to paste up the target. I obviously need to work on this more. Shoulder rotations, arm behind the back stretches and other flexes to arm/shoulder. But not excessive to injure.

I believe that I did have more control of the pistol trigger at 3 lbs and dot positioning with the lighter weight pistol. It grouped 9 ring and better off a rest with Aguila SE at the start of the session.

Next match is an 1800. Goal is to shoot 1400or better. Rain expected all next week so maybe no practice.


Long Line advice/words of wisdom needed - Page 2 Buckma10


Last edited by xman on 5/14/2021, 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Next match and forcast)
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Post by DA/SA 5/14/2021, 4:15 pm

You are reinforcing poor fundamentals when shooting that many rounds while results are deteriorating.

Your last mental snapshot is now of three poor targets and misses, and now you are further recording it mentally by writing about it.
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Post by xman 5/14/2021, 5:06 pm

DA/SA wrote:You are reinforcing poor fundamentals when shooting that many rounds while results are deteriorating.

Your last mental snapshot is now of three poor targets and misses, and now you are further recording it mentally by writing about it.
I am pretty good compartmentalizer. 

The journey to improvement has potholes and setbacks at the level at which I shoot. I accept that. I have directions as to the why of the poor targets.

I will need to make adjustments, address the fundamental failures, learn from the potholes and setbacks and go forward.

I am confident that I will continue to shoot personal bests even with a different pistol. I may slip back some. That is part of the game.

After 40 years of various disciplines, I admit BE has been the most difficult in which to advance. But advancing I have since the start of 2021 via the benefit of my improved TF/RF scores. Hence my current/continued focus on the long line via various suggestions here and in PMs.

Dry fire, live practice, shoulder to shoulder matches and sets of goals. That is the path forward. IMHO
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Post by robert84010 5/14/2021, 5:43 pm

listening when asking for advice might also be a path forward? didn't see where anyone said go shoot a 100 rounds at 50 yards. what did you learn about shooting 50 yards.

Long Line advice/words of wisdom needed - Page 2 Img_0110

in case you need a picture. 10 slowfire 10's at 25 yards, first target of the day, every time I go to the range. Not a great target but at least this lowly expert can produce a 10 on command and all shots were on call.  No need to move on if you can't produce a 10 at 25 yards. The fundamentals shown here would not produce a great score at 50 but you have to be able to produce something like this first for training at 50 to advance. take all the time you need, learn what a 10 looks like and shoot 10 after 10 at 25.

You need to buy the book.

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Post by xman 5/14/2021, 6:06 pm

robert84010 wrote:listening when asking for advice might also be a path forward? didn't see where anyone said go shoot a 100 rounds at 50 yards. what did you learn about shooting 50 yards.

in case you need a picture. 10 slowfire 10's at 25 yards, first target of the day, every time I go to the range. Not a great target but at least this lowly expert can produce a 10 on command. You have to be able to do this first.

You need to buy the book.
Yes it has been recommended to shoot 10 shots slow fire 25 yard targets in messages and PMs. And I have done so. Results were 70% in the black average over several targets. I used my M41. And I will go back to that with the Buckmark after the next match. That is if I cannot get a practice in due to weather next week. And I did not want to go cold into a match at 50yards with no 50 yard "practice" with the Buckmark. 

I am going to my Buckmark for the lighter weight, slightly heavier trigger. I know, I know its like changing horses in mid-stream. My goals are still the same. Todays practice was the first in while with the Buckmark and I wanted some initial feedback from the long line with it.
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Post by robert84010 5/14/2021, 6:30 pm

Can you tell how many times you dryfired before each of your practice targets?

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Post by xman 5/14/2021, 6:41 pm

robert84010 wrote:Can you tell how many times you dryfired before each of your practice targets?
It ranged 4 to 7 times dry fire for each IIRC. My notes dont reflect it. My error. More toward the 4. The bench configuration take a toll on my shoulder joints.
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Post by robert84010 5/14/2021, 6:53 pm

you've mentioned 100 shots and 100 dryfires, you seem to be in a race to 100 or are fixated instead of seeing what your dryfire is telling you. With 30% of your shots in the white at 25 I guarantee you your dryfire is telling you something that you are missing.

you first have to be able to dryfire 10 after 10 before shooting them. 

 How about dryfiring until you KNOW you have produced a 10 if that was a shot and then start a target of 10. do not change your grip after you dryfire and start on target. Even if that takes a lot of time. focus on quality shots on target and not on 100 shots. if you shoot a lot in the white you should stop and dryfire and figure out what is wrong.

you really are reinforcing bad shots instead of learning what is wrong and fixing it.

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Post by xman 5/14/2021, 7:14 pm

robert84010 wrote:you've mentioned 100 shots and 100 dryfires, you seem to be in a race to 100 or are fixated instead of seeing what your dryfire is telling you. With 30% of your shots in the white at 25 I guarantee you your dryfire is telling you something that you are missing.

you first have to be able to dryfire 10 after 10 before shooting them. 

 How about dryfiring until you KNOW you have produced a 10 if that was a shot and then start a target of 10. do not change your grip after you dryfire and start on target. Even if that takes a lot of time. focus on quality shots on target and not on 100 shots. if you shoot a lot in the white you should stop and dryfire and figure out what is wrong.

you really are reinforcing bad shots instead of learning what is wrong and fixing it.
you first have to be able to dryfire 10 after 10 before shooting them. 


Easier said than done for a Marksman. Marksmen are Marksmen for a reason after all.  I just may never get to the actual shooting. LOL Not sure if my shoulder will hold up with the additional dryfires to get to ten after ten then live fire at 25 yards.

Will earnestly give it a go.
Thanks!
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Post by robert84010 5/14/2021, 9:01 pm

sorry bud but I was a Marksman, for six months because I listened to the Expert I trained with. I hardly ever shot 50 yards outside of matches.

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