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Improving Sustained Fire

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pgg
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Post by pgg 6/1/2021, 7:15 pm

I've made a lot of progress but have plateaued. I'm shooting iron sights. Just legged out in service pistol. Last two EIC scores were 258 and 275. 270ish is about my practice average for centerfire. 

Slow fire I'm consistently scoring above 90. I usually take a fairly long time with each shot - constant rearward pressure on the trigger, no stop/start, but often 5-10 seconds of hold time. I reset and start over about 1/3 of the time. 

For timed fire, if I practice with the "Splits" timer app, if I concentrate on breaking good shots, and starting to apply pressure to the trigger during recoil and reacquiring the target, I'm scoring mid 90s but usually finishing in 15-25 seconds. Attempts to speed up result in shots pushed low and left. Poor in timed fire, but if I push the cadence to rapid fire very poor, with rounds sometimes showing up in the 5 or 6 ring. (So predictable that in matches I crank the sights up and right to get centered groups and scores around 85-90 in rapid fire.)

Dry fire hasn't seemed to help getting over this hump as the first shot is usually good, but it's the follow-ups that drift low left. (Almost all of my dry fire shots feel good.) 

22lr scores are about 10 points better than centerfire on the NMC. 

I've progressed through the 3 sec drill in the USMC workbook but again the first shot is usually fine. It's recovering and getting another shot off in under 2 seconds and then 3 more good shots that I'm struggling with. The faster squeeze is pushing me low left.

pgg

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Post by PhotoEscape 6/1/2021, 9:20 pm

Does your elbow hyper-extends?  I mean, goes over 180 degrees when your arm is fully stretched?

AP
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Post by pgg 6/1/2021, 9:47 pm

No, it's about straight. Maybe a couple degrees past 180 at most?

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Post by mspingeld 6/2/2021, 7:53 am

I don't mean to be argumentative or offensive and certainly not arguing with success but, if a slow fire shot takes close to 10 seconds, doesn't that indicate some start and stop? Does a dry fire shot on a blank wall take that long? If the hammer hooks are .020" that would be moving the trigger at .002" per second. I certainly don't have that kind of control.

p.s. I have a vested interest in this topic as my iron sight work is very similar to yours, same issues. (slightly lower scores Sad )

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Post by chopper 6/2/2021, 9:11 am

I'm just a marksman, and started shooting irons myself, but when I was using a dot my best sustained scores were when I started pulling the trigger on my way to the black. That could be too late or early for some shooters you'll have to experiment for yourself. 
 There was a video of a shooter using irons during rapid fire, I think on a AMU YouTube.
 Stan

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Post by pgg 6/2/2021, 9:55 am

mspingeld wrote:I don't mean to be argumentative or offensive and certainly not arguing with success but, if a slow fire shot takes close to 10 seconds, doesn't that indicate some start and stop? Does a dry fire shot on a blank wall take that long? If the hammer hooks are .020" that would be moving the trigger at .002" per second. I certainly don't have that kind of control.

p.s. I have a vested interest in this topic as my iron sight work is very similar to yours, same issues. (slightly lower scores Sad )
In slow fire I typically let the sights settle on the black for a few seconds before I even start the trigger pull. Also as I start to apply pressure there isn't any trigger movement for a couple seconds. Does that make sense? 

If I stop trigger pressure in slow fire I put the gun down and start over. I do that often.

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Post by mspingeld 6/2/2021, 10:01 am

Makes perfect sense. These words are key for me in timed & rapid: "starting to apply pressure to the trigger during recoil", whether dot or irons.

When I do that, the target is much prettier...........when I do that.

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Post by pgg 6/2/2021, 7:06 pm

Today. Timed went fine, but rapid fire had the usual problems. Faster cadence, speeding up trigger pull = shots pushed low left.

First 30 rounds of timed fire went fine, averaged 93, had 3 rounds go high because they went off while I was still recovering into the center -

Improving Sustained Fire Cf-tim10

20 more timed fire went fine, averaged about 96, one more high that broke before I settled back into the center -

Improving Sustained Fire Cf-tim11

Then 30 rounds of rapid fire averaged about 82 -

Improving Sustained Fire Cf-rap10

And to finish up and make myself feel a little better, 30 rounds of rimfire timed fire -

Improving Sustained Fire 22-tim10

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Post by chopper 6/2/2021, 10:20 pm

PGG, you'll get a few high hits once in a while, but it'll get better. Those low lefts will improve on RFs, just concentrate getting on the trigger while moving the sights in the black. That timing will improve and you'll see more 10s and fewer 9s.
 Stan

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Post by DA/SA 6/3/2021, 5:24 am

I'd recommend working on grip consistency.

You are most likely tightening your grip when squeezing the trigger as you attempt to shoot faster.

Concentrate on maintaining a constant grip when training.
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Post by mspingeld 6/3/2021, 6:56 am

For me, it's trigger speed. The clock gets in my head and I pull the trigger too fast. When I start the trigger early, it's a controlled pull. Trigger control means you control the trigger, not the devil on your shoulder with the stopwatch.

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Post by pgg 6/3/2021, 7:04 am

DA/SA wrote:I'd recommend working on grip consistency.

You are most likely tightening your grip when squeezing the trigger as you attempt to shoot faster.

Concentrate on maintaining a constant grip when training.
That could be

Next time I'm at the range I'll make grip the focus for the day.

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Post by UnGe 6/3/2021, 10:31 am

I do not have good experience with rapid fire, but your target reminds me the exercise we did for slow fire to fix trigger pull problems. Aim well, then yank the trigger. Correct trigger finger position and pull direction until flyers do not fly too far.
I know that common chart refers to low left as tightening grip, but if your grip is balanced (no shifts of sights when tightening), this looks more like pull problem (controlled/slow pull is much more forgiving to small problems)

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