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accuracy quest, what is the bottleneck?

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Post by Merick 6/4/2021, 1:01 pm

I've made about the best ammo I think I can with zero 185's and mixed brass, and using a springfield factory barrel with briley bushing, this mix will print 4-5" 5 shot 50yd groups out of a ransom rest, which is probably okay to good enough. 

However if I wanted to cut that group size down into a real confidence booster how do I proceed?  New barrel?

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Post by robert84010 6/4/2021, 1:22 pm

Use new starline brass.

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Post by Merick 6/4/2021, 1:33 pm

robert84010 wrote:Use new starline brass.

Easier said than done.

While I wait for components to return maybe I'll try weight sorting my range brass.

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Post by Wobbley 6/4/2021, 1:54 pm

Just segregate by make.  Then use one of the “big three” or Starline if you have enough for the long line.  I segregate my a discernible feature for my loads.  Mixed brass is training ammo.  JHP (almost always in Federal or Winchester) is longline or big matches..., LSWC in Win or Federal cases is local to regional matches...etc.  you can do that while watching the idiots on TV...
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Post by Jon Eulette 6/4/2021, 2:02 pm

Too many unknowns? Is pistol stock (other than bushing) or built into bullseye pistol? RR or from sandbag rest? If barrel is only fit correctly at muzzle but loose hood or slide stop fit you are chasing your tail. Best ammo in the world will never group better than your 4-5".
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Post by Merick 6/4/2021, 2:22 pm

Ransom rest.
Stock SA range officer barrel + egw .200 stop (definite improvement) and the briley bushing. I've done fire control work too but that shouldn't change groups.

I don't know how to unravel this without a known good quantity (or two) to test against. IE if I had some federal gmm that would show if my barrel is a dog, or run my ammo in a proven 1-2" gun.


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Post by chiz1180 6/4/2021, 3:53 pm

Have you tried good factory ammo? Recoil and mainspring weights reasonable? What is your load info?

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Post by rburk 6/4/2021, 4:41 pm

In my own very limited testing, I tried 4.8 and 4.5 gr of WST with the JHP's, and found that my gun definitely does better with 4.5.  I am going to try 4.2 next.

As others have said, use the same head stamp cases.

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Post by Schaumannk 6/4/2021, 4:45 pm

Some Springfield factory barrels will shoot,   Some won’t.    I personally would put in a Kart barrel.

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Post by Jon Eulette 6/4/2021, 4:53 pm

Can you show us your rest groups? If group is all over the place vs a pattern of vertical or horizontal stringing gives us an idea whether that barrel will ever group or not.
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Post by Merick 6/4/2021, 6:26 pm

I'll try and get some pics up after the weekend. Spring rates are standard specs/gi guide rod.
My notes- 5 shot groups at 50 yards;
Hornady 185 3.6 (weak function) and 4.5 BE (good function) both 6" mainly vertical
Umc ball 6" mostly all horizontal  (also really hot)
Zero 185 4.5 BE 4.5" in something proximal to a group

Earlier a 10 round group of h185/3.6 was about 5" group

I don't read much into the x/y spreads with only 5 shots other than they aren't great performers. With some one way and some the other I'd qualify it as 'all over the place'

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Post by Jon Eulette 6/4/2021, 6:51 pm

Based on my experience with the RO, the barrel fit has good headspace and front to rear play is minimal. The upper barrel lug makes decent radial contact with slide lugs. The hood sides are not close to contacting the slide and the bottom lugs do not make good solid contact even with a 0.200 slide stop pin. So when the pistol fires the barrel will twist within the slide, the barrel will shift vertically as a result of the twisting. The barrel also comes out of battery very fast. All of this typically will not result in good 50 yard groups. Too much movement just from the barrel alone not considering slide to frame play and bushing tolerances.
Go for a new KKM or Kart barrel. When properly fit it will alleviate all of these problems and give you 1.5ish accuracy at 50 yards.
I know some have gotten lucky with RO grouping in 3” range, but that’s really limiting your potential as a developing shooter.
“Real” bullseye pistols exist for a reason 😁
Jon
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Post by Sa-tevp 6/4/2021, 7:09 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:snip

Go for a new KKM or Kart barrel. When properly fit it will alleviate all of these problems and give you 1.5ish accuracy at 50 yards.

I know some have gotten lucky with RO grouping in 3” range, but that’s really limiting your potential as a developing shooter.

“Real” bullseye pistols exist for a reason 😁
Jon

I can confirm exactly what Jon said with the experience with my RO. A good bushing and slide lock pin got 3" groups with the RO factory barrel, a Bullseye pistolsmith fitted Kart barrel surprised the pistolsmith.

200 SWC and 4.0 BE and more practice. The only goofy thing I do is longer Starline for the long line and shorter Starline for 25 yards.
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Post by LenV 6/6/2021, 1:51 pm

accuracy quest, what is the bottleneck? Screen40
Merick wrote:
robert84010 wrote:Use new starline brass.

Easier said than done.

While I wait for components to return maybe I'll try weight sorting my range brass.
Still in stock...
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Post by Merick 6/7/2021, 6:36 pm

LenV wrote:accuracy quest, what is the bottleneck? Screen40
Merick wrote:
robert84010 wrote:Use new starline brass.

Easier said than done.

While I wait for components to return maybe I'll try weight sorting my range brass.
Still in stock...
At only 25% more than starline themselves list it for, why wouldn't it be.

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Post by LenV 6/7/2021, 7:17 pm

That price is 17% less than Midway's sales  price and shipping is less. I got my 500. NFI
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Post by Toz35m 6/10/2021, 1:10 pm

Myself and others in my area have shot very acceptable groups with mixed brass using good bullets.  I would focus on your gun to make sure it is as accurate as it needs to be aligned with your abilities.
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Post by Merick 6/10/2021, 10:04 pm

I decided to order a kart barrel after I found a deal on one in stock (KKM are more expensive and 12 weeks out)

It may not be on the critical path or root cause analysis protocols, but my experience from rifle is that if I can glue and screw one variable to the ground, then set it in cement, the rest of the problem is smaller and clearer. 

So once that barrel is in that's one box I can check for good.

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Post by Al 6/11/2021, 9:27 am

“Real” bullseye pistols exist for a reason accuracy quest, what is the bottleneck? 1f601.png?v=2.2
Jon



Well said Jon.

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Post by spursnguns Yesterday at 10:14 pm

Al wrote:“Real” bullseye pistols exist for a reason accuracy quest, what is the bottleneck? 1f601.png?v=2.2
Jon



Well said Jon.

The gospel of Jon, chapter one.
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