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Stability while shooting - boots

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inthebeech
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Post by mikemyers 6/20/2021, 2:16 pm

Hopefully this topic belongs here, and I'm not wasting everyone's time.

I bought a pair of Georgia Boots a few years ago, with a steel toe cover, and pretty heavy-duty construction.  My brother turned me onto the idea, and once they broke in a little, I enjoyed them.  He also wears "Timberland" boots, so I tried on a pair, and liked them even more.  Since then I bought another two pairs.  Very comfortable, and I'm always wearing them, especially at the range. If the range is wet, they're water proof.

Anyway, for ages now I've been dry-firing, usually with boots on, but occasionally just my socks.  With just socks, it's easier to lock in the "elevation" of the gun sight.  When I get to the range, it's more difficult, but I was way too slow to put all this together.  Today, while going for a walk, I noticed my Timberland boots acted like "rocking chairs".  Either one allowed me to rock front and back.  I got home, and did some testing.  The worn Timberland boots lost the "stiffness" in the bottom of the boots. With little effort I could flex them back and forth.  My new Timberland boots were much better, and my Georgia Boots felt like they were solid objects that my feet went into - they didn't rock at all.


Thinking back on this, I think I'd be better off shooting in just my socks, with the bottom of my feet flat on the ground.  Since that's not very practical, the next time I go to the range, I'll try the Georgia Boots.

It's easy to test for this - first, hold the boot or shoe in your hand, and feel how "stiff" it is, and then put it on the ground and see what happens if you deliberately try to "rock it" forward and back.

As for me, I think I've been shooting for a good long while while my feet/shoes/boots are acting like flexible rocking chairs.  Dumb.

If this is useful to anyone, great - but I suspect most of you already know this from long ago.  I'm putting it in the "Equipment Forum" because that's where I think it belongs.
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Post by troystaten 6/20/2021, 7:28 pm

Have you seen those track shoes that look like gloves for your feet.  If anything they are funny enough looking that they would drive the rest of the people on the line to distraction Wink

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Post by xman 6/20/2021, 7:35 pm

troystaten wrote:Have you seen those track shoes that look like gloves for your feet.  If anything they are funny enough looking that they would drive the rest of the people on the line to distraction Wink
I think they are called Skelatoes.
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Post by james r chapman 6/20/2021, 7:42 pm

I think a stiff sole with raised heel would be
Preferable
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Post by Jack H 6/20/2021, 8:01 pm

james r chapman wrote:I think a stiff sole with raised heel would be
Preferable

Solid concave heel.  Maybe nail taps on both sides of the heel.
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Post by tray999 6/20/2021, 11:08 pm

Here is what some shooters are using to shoot 10 meter air pistol:

http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=CC33536
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Post by mikemyers 6/21/2021, 5:46 am

'tray999', for an indoor range, that would definitely accomplish what I need - as it says on the page you linked to:

     The flat sole delivers optimal stability

My soles on my boots is now curved, so my boots literally rock back and forth, like a rocking chair.

I don't think these shoes would be very good on a large outdoor bullseye range, which is often quite muddy.  If I was shooting while standing on dirt my boots would probably work fine, but I shoot from a concrete slab. 

Thanks for posting - if I start going to indoor ranges again, I might buy a pair.
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Post by mikemyers 6/21/2021, 5:57 am

james r chapman wrote:I think a stiff sole with raised heel would be
Preferable
Jim, that's what my Georgia Boots are like.  They feel like they weigh as much as I do, and they also feel like they're "anchored to the floor".  

My Timberland boots are light, comfortable, waterproof, and I stopped wearing shoes because I liked them so much, but now that I've become aware of it, the soles are permanently curved, and like I wrote, they behave like rocking chairs.  

I wondered why my groups were larger vertically than horizontally, and I thought the problem was me.  When I dry-fired only wearing socks, it was easier than if I still had my boots on.  I guess I'm slow to notice these things.   I'm curious now - next time I'll check what others are wearing at my range.
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Post by CrankyThunder 6/21/2021, 7:11 am

Isnt there a rule prohibiting footwear supporting the ankle?  Not sure how much it is enforced with all the soldiers wearing army boots.  

Anyways, go ahead and snag that Champions Choice pistol shooting shoe, or get some of the European "Clown Shoes" if you really want to make a statement.  

Better yet, wait for Tony H with his zebra skinned acrylic heeled custom brogues for your viewing pleasure.  

Personally, I go to my vast collection of various footwear and choose the pair that dont smell too bad.  

Regards, 
Crankster
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Post by xman 6/21/2021, 11:34 am

CrankyThunder wrote:Isnt there a rule prohibiting footwear supporting the ankle?  Not sure how much it is enforced with all the soldiers wearing army boots.  

Only in 10m AP (and other international shooting) is there shoe restrictions. In BE there are no shoe restrictions regarding over the ankle length that I could find.
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Post by Allgoodhits 6/21/2021, 11:53 am

ISSF has detailed shoe restrictions. They actually have a device which checks sole stiffness too.
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Post by mikemyers 6/21/2021, 11:59 am

I'm confused - why would they check "sole stiffness"?  Would they be illegal if they had a flat metal bottom that didn't flex?

My "Georgia Boots" have a steel toe, and are extremely stiff.  If I try to "rock" them forwards, the heel lifts off the ground - since the boots don't "flex" like all my other shoes and boots.
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Post by weber1b 6/21/2021, 1:16 pm

And then you  (at least before the ground work was done) have you muck boots for shooting at Perry in July.....

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Post by mikemyers 6/21/2021, 2:12 pm

Muck boots??    I guess so.  Never thought of them that way.
Seriously though, on flat ground, the boots are supported by the heel and the low spot near the middle.
The front of the boot will not come down lower without the heel lifting off the ground.
None of my other shoes, boots, moccasins, whatever work this way.  
It's as if there was a steel plate embedded in the sole.
The only way they can move like a "rocking chair" is if I lift my heel literally off the ground.

I don't know about Perry, but when my range floods, I can walk through the deep puddles, mud, grass, whatever with no concerns.  

https://www.georgiaboot.com/flx-point/georgia-boot-flxpoint-composite-toe-waterproof-work-boot/G6644____M__095.html

Stability while shooting - boots G6644_LARGE
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Post by xman 6/21/2021, 3:40 pm

mikemyers wrote:Muck boots??    I guess so.  Never thought of them that way.
Seriously though, on flat ground, the boots are supported by the heel and the low spot near the middle.
The front of the boot will not come down lower without the heel lifting off the ground.
None of my other shoes, boots, moccasins, whatever work this way.  
It's as if there was a steel plate embedded in the sole.
The only way they can move like a "rocking chair" is if I lift my heel literally off the ground.

I don't know about Perry, but when my range floods, I can walk through the deep puddles, mud, grass, whatever with no concerns.  

https://www.georgiaboot.com/flx-point/georgia-boot-flxpoint-composite-toe-waterproof-work-boot/G6644____M__095.html

From what I have read and heard about Perry, Perry would eat those boots up mid high up the laces. The "soil" gets trampled quite a bit and really softens up. Deep soft soil foot prints filled with water and the quashed ground just sucks your shoes down.

My local range get the same way. Bad/slow drainage, soft soil/sand. I keep my tall calf height muck boots in my SUV just in case it rained there but not at my home.
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Post by Allgoodhits 6/21/2021, 5:21 pm

mikemyers wrote:I'm confused - why would they check "sole stiffness"?  Would they be illegal if they had a flat metal bottom that didn't flex?

My "Georgia Boots" have a steel toe, and are extremely stiff.  If I try to "rock" them forwards, the heel lifts off the ground - since the boots don't "flex" like all my other shoes and boots.
You would have to ask ISSF -

ISSF - New ISSF Enforcement Procedures for Shooters’ Shoes (issf-sports.org)
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Post by chiz1180 6/21/2021, 5:31 pm

Allgoodhits wrote:
mikemyers wrote:I'm confused - why would they check "sole stiffness"?  Would they be illegal if they had a flat metal bottom that didn't flex?

My "Georgia Boots" have a steel toe, and are extremely stiff.  If I try to "rock" them forwards, the heel lifts off the ground - since the boots don't "flex" like all my other shoes and boots.
You would have to ask ISSF -

ISSF - New ISSF Enforcement Procedures for Shooters’ Shoes (issf-sports.org)
I believe it is so that everyone competes on “fair ground”. Does it make much difference, I don’t think it does, but I have a pair of shoes specifically for shooting air pistol. ISSF rules tend to be a bit more strict than bullseye.

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Post by CrankyThunder 6/21/2021, 6:25 pm

Mike:

Muck boots are a brand of boots.  

Favored by sportspeople in the equine arena. 

Specifically for "Mucking" out horse stalls. 

Check these out:

 Amazon.com | Muck Boot Men's Fieldblazer Classic Industrial Boot, Brown/Mossy Oak Country, 10 | Hiking Boots




When it gets really deep, ya switch to hip boots.  


Amazon.com: LaCrosse Men's Big Chief 32" 600g: Shoes

and if your in deep, then its time to break out the chest waders:


Amazon.com : Gator Waders Mens Swamp Quilted Thermal Insulated Breathable Offroad Chest Waders with Boots – Waterproof to Keep You Dry and Warm for Off-Road ATV Riding and Mud Bogging : Sports & Outdoors


And sometimes, it gets so bad at Perry that you need one of these:

Amazon.com : Scubapro Everdry 4mm Dry Suit Men's : Sports & Outdoors
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Post by mikemyers 6/21/2021, 7:38 pm

CrankyThunder -- Yikes!!!!!    I think if I needed any of those, I'd stay home - but I guess some might be good for hunting?


Chiz1180 -- Double yikes!!   I was sort of kidding around about those boots, but the reality is that I'm pretty sure they're not "legal".

"ISSF Rifle Rules have an additional provision requiring that “the sole must be flexible at the ball of the foot” (7.4.6.3.2).  Now that the ISSF has an approved testing device and test data from more than 700 boots and shoes taken during 2011 Championships, it is possible to establish an objective testing standard.  The soles of shooters’ shoes must bend at least 22.5 degrees when a force of 15 Newton-Meters is applied to the heel area while the boot or shoe is clamped in the testing device."


I can't visualize 15 Newton-Meters, but I do know that if I try to "flex" this boot, it barely moves. 




More seriously, I don't think there is a problem with a shoe or boot being "flexible", but with my regular boots, when I put my foot down the "middle" of my foot is pressing on the ground, and I can easily rock my foot forwards and backwards like a "rocking chair".  Maybe they're worn out.  I feel more stable if I just wear my socks.  Then at least my foot naturally stays "flat" on the floor.
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Post by robert84010 6/21/2021, 8:06 pm

How about you shoot a 2700 point match in those heavy boots before you recommend them.


John Bickar wore Van's skateboard shoes while on the US National Pistol Team. 

Mike its still about trigger control.

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Post by james r chapman 6/21/2021, 8:35 pm

YEAH!

Stability while shooting - boots 88c89f10


Last edited by james r chapman on 6/22/2021, 8:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by robert84010 6/21/2021, 8:53 pm

No Jim. The low cut ones. I know how could anyone shoot a ten in those silly things let alone win national titles. now go dryfire because its still about trigger control no matter what your feet are in.

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Post by Wobbley 6/21/2021, 10:14 pm

If you want stability…(a little difficult to move around tho)…
Stability while shooting - boots 12820f10
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Post by SilentAssassin 6/21/2021, 10:27 pm

This is what I wear to the benchrest matches.
Allows me to keep my feet planted at the bench.
Stability while shooting - boots ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Fimages%2Fi%2F133050050965-0-1%2Fs-l1000

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Post by OldShooter43 6/22/2021, 4:19 am

Gee.  Should this thread be moved to Shooting Fundamentals? Evil or Very Mad

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