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Camp Perry 2021

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SteveT
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Post by Orpanaut Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:46 am

First topic message reminder :

This is a thread to share the Canp Perry experience with those who cannot attend this year.

For me, 2021 is both a return after missing both 2019 and 2020 and the beginning of a new normal with the NRA having left for Camp Atterbury and the CMP running the whole show.  It's good to be back. 

The first surprising thing about Perry 2021, at least for me, is the number of shooters here.  I thought that attendance would be down maybe a third as some shooters opted to go to the NRA Nationals instead.  But the RV park is full and there are no lodging vacancies, even in the barracks. 

This leads to the second surprise... the long wait to check in with the CMP.  It's the same setup in the Arcade as in previous years, but with more matches to process the system seems to have bogged down some.  I got in line mid-afternoon yesterday (probably the worst possible time) and didn't finish until two hours later.  Next year, I will have to arrive earlier so I can finish before the practice range closes.

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Post by Orpanaut Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:45 pm

The rain went away at the end of the first relay for the President's 100. Conditions for the rest of the day have been dry but windy. (Not windy enough to blow benches over, but enough to make it worthwhile to shoot between the gusts).

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Post by Rotwang Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:19 pm

The P100, NTI, and NTT matches have always (at least 25 years) used brand new targets instead of used and repasted targets.  Using repair centers for most matches saves a lot of money.

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Post by Olde Pilot Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:03 pm

Canton results??

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Post by james r chapman Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:50 pm

Olde Pilot wrote:Canton results??

Posted on their Facebook pages

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t17726-canton-results?highlight=Canton
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Post by Wobbley Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:54 pm

Rotwang wrote:The P100, NTI, and NTT matches have always (at least 25 years) used brand new targets instead of used and repasted targets.  Using repair centers for most matches saves a lot of money.
It saves some money.   But in the scheme of things I’m not sure it’s worth it.  Full size “tag board” are $48 per hundred or $.50 per target.  Tag board “centers” are $14 per hundred.  Replacing full tag board targets is $14 for a 2700. It is THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS for Gods sake.  Just add the extra to the entry fee.
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Post by chiz1180 Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:51 pm

Wobbley wrote:
Rotwang wrote:The P100, NTI, and NTT matches have always (at least 25 years) used brand new targets instead of used and repasted targets.  Using repair centers for most matches saves a lot of money.
It saves some money.   But in the scheme of things I’m not sure it’s worth it.  Full size “tag board” are $48 per hundred or $.50 per target.  Tag board “centers” are $14 per hundred.  Replacing full tag board targets is $14 for a 2700. It is THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS for Gods sake.  Just add the extra to the entry fee.

For the 2700, the EIC's, and revolver match for the week, according to rumor it save about $20,000. That is significant.

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Post by tyro Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:02 pm

this is my first visit to perry.its more of a marathon than a match.up at 0600 at perry for colors at 0700 load gear into cart go to range,grab a target.im new to bullseye and sitting with guys that make it to stage for awards,light rain no wind.on line slow fire,targets turn and wind starts blowing wow this is perry.after 900 break for 2.5 hours then back on line for eic match,then team matches.repeat 3 days.beginning of week practice,safs m9 match.very full week of shooting.i am amazed at how good top shooters shoot in wind rain.brought my 1911 to armorer amu and they were terrific,and said barrel excessive headspace,i need new barrel safety issue.cmp had one of my scores wrong and fixed in one hour wow great match management. i went into booze and screws market with team shirt on and they said the shooters that come into store are the nicest group of people,i agree tyro

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Post by Wobbley Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:06 pm

The rumor is incorrect…do the math.  Assuming 1000 competitors it’s not that high
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Post by Schaumannk Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:08 pm

Wobbley wrote:The rumor is incorrect…do the math.  Assuming 1000 competitors it’s not that high
They are using those miserable thin paper replacement centers.    They also could be counting labor for pasting all the new targets,    I don’t know.    The CMP has always been sketchy at math.

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Post by radjag Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:54 pm

I asked the ever cheerful and very organised Cathy about the use of fresh cardboard for the matches this morning. She told me that since the P100 and NT are "the most prestigious" they decided to use all new backers/targets.

This is my first Perry, so it was a new experience, frankly, just a PITA in the strong gusty wind, especially if the edges of the cardboard got wet in the rain, even when stored carefully under the bench.

I love tradition, but fresh backers for each card is just a PITA.

IMHO.

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Post by chiz1180 Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:17 pm

Wobbley wrote:The rumor is incorrect…do the math.  Assuming 1000 competitors it’s not that high

The range at Perry uses double wall cardboard, not the thin stuff most matches use, so the cost is higher, it also slightly oversize to most typical ranges at 24"x28". You also need to have a extras for hospitals, challenges, ect. So just for the 2700 you need at least 27 cardboard backers per competitor, assume 800 competitors, assuming cardboard is $1/ backer (just a guess on my part), 27x800x$1=$21,600 just for cardboard. If  instead each competitor uses 3 backers for the 2700 (one per 22, cf, and 45) 3x800x$1=$2,400. Difference of $19,200 without taking into account the full face targets and the need for them to be pasted on each cardboard.

This does not take into account the warm up match, team matches, the EIC's or the revolver match. 


So before you are critical of "sketchy" math, it helps to know a bit more about what the range requires.

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Post by orpheoet Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:26 pm

My experience was excellent. Check in was tedious but I expect will improve. Vendors row had many familiar names and a few new ones. The weather was Camp Perry. I personally dislike lugging full face targets so repair centers are fine by me. Room for improvement, certainly. But I’m very pleased.
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Post by Schaumannk Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:37 pm

They repaste new full face targets over the old cardboard.  At least they did in the past, and most of the targets on the first day of the 2700 this year were the thick ones, rain soaked with corners bent from a wet match in some previous year.   
In 2019 somebody ordered the very thin preprinted targets.  They were blowing out of the frames.  So most shooters were using two or three, the two back ones as backers to hold them in the frames.  
That sure didn’t save any money.  
I suspect all the targets used this year were old stock.  

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Post by james r chapman Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:41 pm

The preprinted ones were a great idea! Unfortunately they used thin cardboard that melted in the rain.
2nd day we were issued clear plastic bags to shoot thru.
Fun for all!
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Post by chiz1180 Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:52 pm

Schaumannk wrote:They repaste new full face targets over the old cardboard.  At least they did in the past, and most of the targets on the first day of the 2700 this year were the thick ones, rain soaked with corners bent from a wet match in some previous year.   
In 2019 somebody ordered the very thin preprinted targets.  They were blowing out of the frames.  So most shooters were using two or three, the two back ones as backers to hold them in the frames.  
That sure didn’t save any money.  
I suspect all the targets used this year were old stock.  
Even if they were old stock, it still cost money to use them, as they will need to be replaced for next year. 

But again looking back at the majority of your replies about Perry, it is mostly complaining anyways.

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Post by Schaumannk Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:10 pm

chiz1180 wrote:
Schaumannk wrote:They repaste new full face targets over the old cardboard.  At least they did in the past, and most of the targets on the first day of the 2700 this year were the thick ones, rain soaked with corners bent from a wet match in some previous year.   
In 2019 somebody ordered the very thin preprinted targets.  They were blowing out of the frames.  So most shooters were using two or three, the two back ones as backers to hold them in the frames.  
That sure didn’t save any money.  
I suspect all the targets used this year were old stock.  
Even if they were old stock, it still cost money to use them, as they will need to be replaced for next year. 

But again looking back at the majority of your replies about Perry, it is mostly complaining anyways.
It’s true.  I’m unimpressed with the CMP’s organizational skills.   Perry is a difficult place to shoot during good weather.  Out of the twelve years I have  been here, there have been four with mostly terrible weather.   This has been one of them.  The little frustrations pile up and I’m starting to understand why a lot of my friends don’t come anymore.  I understand it was amazing before about 1990.  Wish I had come then.

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Post by Orpanaut Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:11 pm

The Glock match today was a nice change of pace.  And since they're using the Lewis scoring system even the average shooters have a chance at an award.  

I hope that the military & police match tomorrow is a success.  Maybe it could be a way to draw more of the "practical" shooters into our sport.

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Post by chiz1180 Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:12 pm

Going over my notes from today, I realized I now have an answer to the common "How tall are the benches at Perry?" 30in +/- any possible variation from the ground.

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Post by Orpanaut Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:25 pm

I wasn't shooting at Perry forty years ago but I'm confident that they had rain and wind back then, too.

What was different in the "good old days" was much greater support of the National Matches by the US military. At that time, the CMP was still the Directorate of Civilian Marksmanship in the Department of the Army. The military helped with range operations, food, and even ammunition.

Those days aren't coming back any time soon.

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Post by Schaumannk Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:43 pm

Orpanaut wrote:I wasn't shooting at Perry forty years ago but I'm confident that they had rain and wind back then, too.

What was different in the "good old days" was much greater support of the National Matches by the US military.  At that time, the CMP was still the Directorate of Civilian Marksmanship in the Department of the Army.  The military helped with range operations, food, and even ammunition.  

Those days aren't coming back any time soon.  
 
of course they had wind and rain back then.   What I am trying to say is that to get a thousand or more pistol shooters through five relays on six ranges everything  had to run like clockwork.  Shooters weren’t scoring other shooters or replacing targets.  The military was doing that for them.  Then shooters had to score their neighbors targets, and replace their own targets.  
Now in addition to managing my target, my guns and my brass net, I need to manage repair centers, sometimes tape, and also a stapler.   When it starts  raining add managing a plastic bag and carrying all the stuff with me back and forth to the table where it must be secured from the wind and the wet. That is too much for me at my age to manage and still focus on my shooting.  You can get snotty and say “if you don’t like it, stay home” but when sufficient numbers of people over 60 start doing that, attendance will drop by half again.  Just saying.

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Post by Wobbley Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:06 pm

chiz1180 wrote:
Wobbley wrote:The rumor is incorrect…do the math.  Assuming 1000 competitors it’s not that high

The range at Perry uses double wall cardboard, not the thin stuff most matches use, so the cost is higher, it also slightly oversize to most typical ranges at 24"x28". You also need to have a extras for hospitals, challenges, ect. So just for the 2700 you need at least 27 cardboard backers per competitor, assume 800 competitors, assuming cardboard is $1/ backer (just a guess on my part), 27x800x$1=$21,600 just for cardboard. If  instead each competitor uses 3 backers for the 2700 (one per 22, cf, and 45) 3x800x$1=$2,400. Difference of $19,200 without taking into account the full face targets and the need for them to be pasted on each cardboard.

This does not take into account the warm up match, team matches, the EIC's or the revolver match. 


So before you are critical of "sketchy" math, it helps to know a bit more about what the range requires.
The complaint/issue was the cost of the targets.  The backers are a separate issue, in my mind.  Each relay will need a new backer per day so that’s about $3 per day.   As for backers, corroplast (corrugated plastic sheet) has proven to be superior but it’s 3 times the price.  The entry fee for the nationals is $150.  For $20 more per competitor new full faces of high grade targets with heavy duty backers could be supplied.  Retention is a mechanical issue as much as a backer issue.
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Post by chiz1180 Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:34 am

Targets at Perry historically have been pasted to the backer, you would replace the entire cardboard/target for each target. So while in your mind backers are a separate issue this was the main issue I was referring in regards to savings. 
Also, you can not plug corrugated plastic sheet, the plug will work properly.

It is also clear that you probably have never ran a match and do not fully understand all that is required to make a match happen on a small scale, let alone with several hundred competitors.

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Post by Orpanaut Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:37 am

This morning's weather is gorgeous: clear, dry and calm. It's a shame that the matches being run are only on the short line.

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Post by Orpanaut Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:47 am

Participation at the M&P match looks low. There are about fifty shooters on the first relay and maybe thirty more waiting to shoot second.

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Post by Dcforman Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:13 am

To get this conversation back on track.... I will say that I had a wonderful time at Perry this year. Relays started on time, range personnel were kind and helpful, I had zero range alibis. One stoppage before team matches for a boat in the water. Weather honestly wasn't that bad (but I'm used to the wind, and I don't mind the rain). Lugging your box to the Short line is really the only issue, which isn't bad if you plan for it. At least they actually gave you a 2 minute prep time at the Short line this year! 

I personally appreciated using repair centers. Much easier than lugging 9 backers to the line for every relay. And they score the same. Also, just a point of reference, most of the backers used during the 2700 were once shot, but every thing Saturday used fresh backers.

For me, Perry is about shooting against the best. I do hope they eventually release the results sorted by classification. It is nice to see how I did compared to others in my class. I know it didn't immediately post because the CMP online scoring system isn't set up for classifications. We'll see if this gets done.

Anyway, had an awesome time. I'm exhausted, but smiling. Already thinking about next year! 

Dave

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