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No Shooter Classification @ Perry

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Post by shooter1450 7/28/2021, 12:02 pm

Was anyone expecting to shoot a 2700 match without shooter classifications?

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Post by james r chapman 7/28/2021, 2:14 pm

What did the program specify?
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Post by dapduh2 7/28/2021, 2:16 pm

Jim Henderson said that since it was the first there weren’t enough shooters that got classifications locally to separate scores by classification. Next year there will be classes from what it sounded like because most everyone will have gotten a classification.
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Post by james r chapman 7/28/2021, 2:26 pm

Actually, they could have use NRA classifications per the rules, but, cut them some slack for the first time.
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Post by Wobbley 7/28/2021, 2:55 pm

This and perhaps the software rewrite allowing for classifications wasn’t ready.  Don’t forget that the CMP never classified results before.  

While a small regional match is easily handled on an excel spreadsheet, 500-1000 competitors with multiple categories is a more difficult exercise.
dapduh2 wrote:Jim Henderson said that since it was the first there weren’t enough shooters that got classifications locally to separate scores by classification. Next year there will be classes from what it sounded like because most everyone will have gotten a classification.
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Post by dapduh2 7/28/2021, 3:01 pm

james r chapman wrote:Actually, they could have use NRA classifications per the rules, but, cut them some slack for the first time.
They’d either have to trust the classification that each competitor gave or verify on a system that isn’t theirs one by one. If I’m CMP I make the same decision. They did a great job for the first go
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Post by chiz1180 7/28/2021, 3:02 pm

james r chapman wrote:Actually, they could have use NRA classifications per the rules, but, cut them some slack for the first time.
Could you imagine looking up everyones NRA classification? It would probably crash their website.

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Post by james r chapman 7/28/2021, 3:06 pm

Nah, you require the document at registration whats another 20 minutes
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Post by Allen Barnett 7/29/2021, 6:43 pm

I for one would have went to Atterbury had I known before hand that no classification system of any type was going to be used at Perry.  Then again Camp Perry was a bucket list item for me.  Been there done that just don't know if I will go back if I cannot compete against shooters of equal level and abilities.

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Post by Allen Barnett 7/29/2021, 8:04 pm

I think some of you are missing the point.  Did you even go to Camp Perry? Well I did and I had my current NRA classification cards with me and a current print out showing ALL of my NRA matches I have competed in for the last 5 years. I knew I had not competed in any CMP matches but under CMP rules I had the documentation to prove my classification.  I think by not using the CMP classification system or NRA as CMP rules allow is a total disregard for the individual shooter and a slap in their face.  After all CMP has had nearly 2 years to get the system up and running for their entry into being the big dog on the porch!!!!! Trust me before I register for next year this will be a deciding factor if I shoot CMP or NRA.

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Post by xman 7/29/2021, 8:05 pm

Allen Barnett wrote:I for one would have went to Atterbury had I known before hand that no classification system of any type was going to be used at Perry.  Then again Camp Perry was a bucket list item for me.  Been there done that just don't know if I will go back if I cannot compete against shooters of equal level and abilities.
I have looked at all of the results at all of the major four that has a used a classification system. By far the most were Experts and the least were Marksman with Sharpshooters closely behind.

Throwing Marksmen and Sharpshooters to the "wolves" is a bit unfair if no classification system is used. We on the lower strata do enjoy competing against the best "overall" during the match. It is what drives us. That being said, we on the lower rungs also very much enjoy directly competing with/against other at the same strata. It is the commonality of skill levels and experiences that is part of the glue that holds the whole sport together.
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Post by Allen Barnett 7/29/2021, 8:18 pm

Yep I checked my Camp Perry scores against Atterbury.  According to NRA there were 6 Marksman.  My scores from Perry would of placed me in 3rd for 22 agg, 1st for CF agg, 2nd for 45 Agg and 2 overall for 2700 agg in my class had I shot the same scores at Atterbury.  It is even worse at the local level in that there are never enough Marksman shooters and we usually get lumped up into the Sharpshooter class which makes it even more difficult.  I have seen it at times when there are not even enough Marksman and Sharpshooters to form a class for any awards.  At least when we are in our "Class" we can see how we did in relation to like qualified shooters, that is all I really want to know!!!!!

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Post by chiz1180 7/29/2021, 8:33 pm

Allen Barnett wrote:I think some of you are missing the point.  Did you even go to Camp Perry? Well I did and I had my current NRA classification cards with me and a current print out showing ALL of my NRA matches I have competed in for the last 5 years. I knew I had not competed in any CMP matches but under CMP rules I had the documentation to prove my classification.  I think by not using the CMP classification system or NRA as CMP rules allow is a total disregard for the individual shooter and a slap in their face.  After all CMP has had nearly 2 years to get the system up and running for their entry into being the big dog on the porch!!!!! Trust me before I register for next year this will be a deciding factor if I shoot CMP or NRA.
I will bring up a similar example that puts a negative light on the NRA classification system. I shot the 2019 Sectional Match with enough match scores to have a marksmen classification (I even was shooting the match with the match director that HAD submitted the scores to the NRA), I was forced to shoot in the Master/unclassified class because the NRA was unable to update classifications. Was this fair to me as a Marksmen? 

Fast foreword to the 2020 Sectional, I had progressed in my ability and had received an outdoor expert card and had shot enough indoor matches such that my indoor classification should have been higher than marksman, but the NRA had not updated my classification (yes, the scores had been submitted to the NRA by the match directors). I shot an 857-20 (38th overall). Was that fair to the other competitors? 

How many years has the NRA been issuing classifications? 

End of the day competition brings out the best of the best. The NRA has been putting in minimal effort for years, the CMP is stepping up. As fast as everyone wants, probably not, but they are putting forth far more productive effort than the NRA.

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Post by rreid 7/29/2021, 8:56 pm

Seems to me that CMP had 2 years to think about how they would handle this. If they weren't going to use the classification system they made such a big deal about, they could have told competitors before they signed up.
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Post by Allen Barnett 7/29/2021, 9:10 pm

What if you were one of the folks who shot in the Triple Crown event in ANY class other than High Master and had won your class at Canton and Cardinal only to find that you cannot win the Triple Crown for your CLASSIFICATION simply because the CMP decides to throw out THEIR rule book and not use the classification system at the NATIONAL PISTOL CHAMPIONSHIPS???  Some of those people just got screwed out of an estimated $500!!!!!!! After all the rules are the rules and CMP should follow their rules like they expect every competitor to do without question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by chiz1180 7/29/2021, 9:12 pm

rreid wrote:Seems to me that CMP had 2 years to think about how they would handle this. If they weren't going to use the classification system they made such a big deal about, they could have told competitors before they signed up.

It was states that most people who showed up did not have a CMP classification, how could you fairly verify an NRA classification? 

Likewise the NRA had two years to make their match the best they could, do they deserve top marks? Aluminum target frames? seriously? I would bet serious money that the CMP had far fewer range issues than the NRA. I would also venture to guess that the NRA had less registration issues (with significantly less competitors numbers in all fairness). Both matches deserve improvement.

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Post by chiz1180 7/29/2021, 9:17 pm

Allen Barnett wrote:What if you were one of the folks who shot in the Triple Crown event in ANY class other than High Master and had won your class at Canton and Cardinal only to find that you cannot win the Triple Crown for your CLASSIFICATION simply because the CMP decides to throw out THEIR rule book and not use the classification system at the NATIONAL PISTOL CHAMPIONSHIPS???  Some of those people just got screwed out of an estimated $500!!!!!!! After all the rules are the rules and CMP should follow their rules like they expect every competitor to do without question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Triple Crown is Ohio Pistol and Rifle Association, not CMP. The number of people eligible to shoot The Triple Crown is less than 120, not 600. You specifically had to enter before any shot was fired.

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Post by Allen Barnett 7/29/2021, 9:33 pm

The point you are missing here is that if you "ponied up" with your Triple Crown entry fee you were signing up to shoot in your classification level and compete against like and equal shooters.  With CMP throwing out their rule book nobody but the High Masters ended up competing for the awards that were guaranteed at the Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert and Master class winners.  There was one Junior Shooter that won all 3 events as a Junior and he won $1000! So yes I do have a case of the XXX against CMP!


Last edited by Allen Barnett on 7/29/2021, 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling correction)

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Post by Danehogle 7/29/2021, 9:40 pm

No one was screwed for the triple crown. All shooters who were in it were checked for classification. 
As to the CMP, they have done a great job getting the 2700 program up and running. So everyone…. Tell me, what is your CMP classification? Is it different from NRA? 
With the one year no classification, that lets everyone get a CMP classification for next year. So instead of different classification for the same thing, all will start where they should be. If more match directors  would of had CMP sanctioned matches, this wouldn’t have been a problem. At least you know the money wasn’t spent of someone’s high priced suit. It went back into the shooting system for the shooters.
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Post by chiz1180 7/29/2021, 9:42 pm

Allen Barnett wrote:The point you are missing here is that if you "ponied up" with your Triple Crown entry fee you were signing up to shoot in your classification level and compete against like and equal shooters.  With CMP throwing out their rule book nobody but the High Masters ended up competing for the awards that were guaranteed at the Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert and Master class winners.  There was one Junior Shooter that won all 3 events as a Junior and he won $1000! So yes I do have a case of the XXX against CMP!
Again you are comparing two completely different things. The $1000 the Ohio Jr won was NOT from the CMP it was from ORPA. Did the CMP advertise class awards for the National Matches? I personally didn’t see anything regarding class awards. 

As an aside regarding classifications, if you just care about winning your classification you will never progress.

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Post by rreid 7/29/2021, 10:22 pm

chiz1180 wrote:
It was states that most people who showed up did not have a CMP classification, how could you fairly verify an NRA classification? 

As I said,  CMP had time to think this through. They're the ones who said NRA classifications could be used for shooters who did not have a CMP classification. If an NRA card wasn't going to be acceptable, they should have stated what kind of proof they would accept. Instead,  they threw the the whole thing out the window without informing competitors before they put their money down.
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Post by chiz1180 7/29/2021, 10:43 pm

rreid wrote:
chiz1180 wrote:
It was states that most people who showed up did not have a CMP classification, how could you fairly verify an NRA classification? 

As I said,  CMP had time to think this through. They're the ones who said NRA classifications could be used for shooters who did not have a CMP classification. If an NRA card wasn't going to be acceptable, they should have stated what kind of proof they would accept. Instead,  they threw the the whole thing out the window without informing competitors before they put their money down.
CMP Match Bulletin for Pistol 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DiBBU3qJHIb5kHrTRG0Zj58ja21cuZ-r400_XoNtKJo/edit

For the 2700 awards, it states "to be determined" it is even highlighted, says nothing about classifications. Before you complain about something not being what you want know what you sign up for, if you are too lazy to read the match bulletin you have no right to be disappointed. This was avaible before the matches, you clearly did not seek out the information and just made an assumption.

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Post by rreid 7/29/2021, 10:48 pm

Danehogle wrote:If more match directors  would of had CMP sanctioned matches, this wouldn’t have been a problem.



As a match director, I take exception to being blamed for CMP's issues. I sanctioned matches through CMP, and I think I could just as easily ask why I bothered if they weren't going to use my competitors classifications. 

This whole discussion is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
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Post by Danehogle 7/30/2021, 6:45 am

Bad taste? Then stop sucking the NRA tit.
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Post by TonyH 7/30/2021, 7:15 am

Don't think this has anything to do with the NRA or how that organization operates (I'm no fan of the NRA as it is run today).
The CMP should simply follow their own published rules, and if they don't intend to, then should make the deviations known to the shooters when the match is published. Doesn't seem unreasonable or complicated.
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