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Pistol recommendation

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TicTocer
James Hensler
SilentAssassin
chiz1180
Larry2520
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radjag
zanemoseley
rich.tullo
John Dervis
REConley
fscrook
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Post by fscrook 7/30/2021, 6:58 pm

Hello.
I'm interested in buying a pistol specifically for rapid fire. I really don't have much experience in high end pistols. When I was younger I was at the range and this guy said "watch this" and he took his empty fired 22s and placed them on top of his pistol and fired the gun and the cases did not fall off the gun. I was shocked.

Right now I'm shooting a 1911 marvel 22 conversion. It's very nice but I'm not happy with the amount of muzzle flip that I get. It makes it difficult to transition between targets. I feel that is a result of the bore line being higher than my hand and I see that many of the higher end 22's have the bore line much closer to the hand. My only concern is getting a pistol that has the smallest amount of muzzle flip as possible. I imagine choosing a pistol with a lower boreline will greatly help when compared to the marvel I'm shooting now correct?


I also see the pardini sp 22 has numerous interchangeable weights of tungsten or steel, and that other similar pistols offer weights but not nearly that many and not in tungsten. Is the pardini sp the best choice for rapid fire/reduced muzzle flip or should I consider something else?

Thank you very much for reading and I'm sorry if this topic has been posted before

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Post by REConley 7/30/2021, 7:51 pm

The Pardini SP 22 is what one would see a lot of if they were at the Olympics now watching the rapid fire matches. I believe the course of fire is 5 shots in either 4 seconds at 25 meters with a start with gun at 45% and the shots are on 5 separate targets.  Yes the Pardini is one of the worlds best.

Watch this....    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhuN2VcmYHg
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Post by John Dervis 7/30/2021, 8:51 pm

If you are asking specifically about international rapid fire (like in the olympics) you are on the right track thinking of a Pardini.  The magazine in front allows the bore axis to be much lower than a design like the marvel which aides in controlling muzzle rise. The grip and grip angle help quite a bit too.  
If you wanted to try something with the Marvel, Ive had some success using a 5/8” shaft collar.  You find these at hardware stores or farm stores. You will need the model that has a barrel that extends about 1/2” vs a flush barrel but the shaft collar slides right on and secures with a set screw in the same dimple that the OEM muzzle brake would use.  This makes the gun pretty muzzle heavy but it does help keep the front end steady and reduces the amount of perceived rise.

Good luck.
John

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Post by rich.tullo 7/30/2021, 9:00 pm

If your lower has an accessory rail try this, http://www.1911triggerdoctor.com/index.html

Unless you are cleaning targets already I am not sure you will do better with a Pardini or GSP.
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Post by zanemoseley 7/30/2021, 9:53 pm

A properly weighted 1911/22 is hard to beat for recoil and muzzle flip. Throw a heavy Marvel optics rail on there with a 9000SC if you can handle a 3.25# gun. My favorite 22 is a Hammerli 208S, sweet trigger but not really less recoil.

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Post by radjag 7/30/2021, 11:07 pm

"I'm interested in buying a pistol specifically for rapid fire."


My first question would be - where do you intend to go to shoot (Olympic) Rapid Fire - either practice or matches  AFAIK there are not many places in the USA where that style of shooting is happening?

If you already have a specific shooting range in mind then I would suggest that you go along there on a practice or match day and take a look at what the experienced shooters are using. Introduce yourself and ask some dumb questions at the appropriate time (not immediately prior to the start of a match!).

The Pardini SP is a rock solid reliable gun with appropriate ammo. A new or fairly recent used gun, whilst initially expensive, will hold it's value well. The standard grips are quite good, but there are several after-market grips available. Very much personal preference and only after you have started to achieve a consistently high standard.

On the other hand if you are in fact talking about the Rapid Fire stage of a Precision Pistol (Bullseye) match then the best solution might be somewhat different. Many folks advocate using a 1911 22 conversion for the 22 stage simply because you will, sooner or later, have to shoot a 1911 45 in the 45 stage, so using a gun with a similar grip and trigger style can be beneficial overall. But, same advice applies, go see a match or a league night, watch first then go ask questions.

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Post by SingleActionAndrew 7/31/2021, 7:48 am

FWIW I recently shot a friend's early Marvel 1911 conversion done up by KC, with top rib and optics, and felt like it was CHEATING; the gun had much less perceived recoil than my Ruger Mk.
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Post by Larry2520 7/31/2021, 6:58 pm

I believe in that style of shooting they're also using 22 shorts!

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Post by chiz1180 7/31/2021, 7:08 pm

Larry2520 wrote:I believe in that style of shooting they're also using 22 shorts!
Not anymore. 22lr now.

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Post by SilentAssassin 8/4/2021, 10:00 pm

................


Last edited by SilentAssassin on 8/17/2021, 2:35 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by radjag 8/4/2021, 10:44 pm

OK. Silent Assassin. But, and do excuse me if I am being rude, have you ever shot this gun in a rapid fire match? Either ISSF or NRA/CMP Bullseye Rules?

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Post by SilentAssassin 8/4/2021, 11:00 pm

radjag wrote:OK. Silent Assassin. But, and do excuse me if I am being rude, have you ever shot this gun in a rapid fire match? Either ISSF or NRA/CMP Bullseye Rules?

Nah you're not being rude. But I did say that I do not know how it would do in the competition that you guys shoot.
I was just speaking mainly about recoil.
However, the comparison I'm making clearly shows Pardini's being tested from a rested position by people who do compete.
All of those groupings on Pardini's site were shot from a rested position. None of them were shot one handed in a standing position.
Not a single one of them can match what this Hammerli can do from a rested position. It would utterly annihilate all of those shooters and all of the Pardini's they shot.
Speaking in terms of inherent accuracy from a rested position which is how Pardini conducted this test.
Pardini may in fact Not be the most inherently accurate semi auto 22 pistol.  But may well be a better option for your type of competition and scoring.

That's all im really saying.

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Post by James Hensler 8/5/2021, 5:45 am

Pardini makes a Rapid Fire Sp just for this class and it is different from a SP Bullseye. One thing off the top of my head is a lighter bolt
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Post by TicTocer 8/15/2021, 11:24 pm

SilentAssassin,
Excellent shooting. What is the modification made to your Hammerli 208?

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Post by SilentAssassin 8/16/2021, 1:31 am

TicTocer wrote:SilentAssassin,
 Excellent shooting. What is the modification made to your Hammerli 208?

The heavy Barrel weight. It's a Hammerli barrel weight but not designed for the 208 series as near as I can tell.
The hollowed out part of the weight that the trigger guard fits into would stop the barrel weight from aligning at the muzzle end.
It would stick out about 1/3 inch because the trigger guard would hit the weight,,,,,,not allowing the weight to move flush to the barrel/muzzle.

Machined everything out for the fit........can move the weight along the length of the barrel now. Or just keep it flush with the muzzle, which is where it is now.

I believe those targets are before the actual heavy barrel weight was on the gun and tightened.

Other enhancements were scrubbing the barrel out with a wire brush. It is claimed here to never do this which is poor advice. If you want peak accuracy performance from your gun, you have to do this from time to time. There is no way around it. It will not harm your barrel if done properly. 
Refinished the factory grips. Blood stained a small area on the right side grips. My DNA is on this gun.
Trigger adjustments.
Leupold FXII 2X- 20MM objective. Sourcing this was hard. They are not made any longer. I found one new in its box with matte finish. It took a while.
The last thing I'm going to do is red dot bead the front sight.
The gun shot very good before any of this. 1/2 inch and under, 1/4 inch sometimes.  The gun now shoots like a high end target rifle. 1's and under and 2's consistently from a rested position off bags.
There is nearly no muzzle flip and recoil was reduced dramatically, due to the heavy weight. You can see the projectiles hitting the target through a 2x scope.
It has become the finest shooting, most accurate 22 caliber pistol that I have ever seen, experienced, or touched. Has to be seen to be believed, I'd imagine.
Thanks for your interest.
Target was shot from a freshly scrubbed out bore with no fouling shots, and completely cold bore if memory serves me correctly. Perfect hunting gun.
SA

@25 yards
Pistol recommendation  UI8muvH


This is how the gun looks now.
Pistol recommendation  NlWiXIW

This is how the gun looked when I first got it.
Pistol recommendation  U1ucw6B

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Post by CR10X 8/16/2021, 4:28 pm

Back to the OP's original question.  

For ISSF / Olympic Rapid fire (8, 6, 4 second strings), with the change in the RF event to requiring .22 LR round at the prescribed minimum velocity, the Pardini SP-1RF with an electronic trigger will probably be the best option.  If you are shooting Precision Pistol (USA Bullseye with 5 shot 20 second Timed Fire and 10 second Rapid Fire strings) the the Pardini Bullseye model with the mechanical perfectly adequate and many shooter use it. 

With the .22 LR requirement for ISSP / Olympic; the days of the almost zero recoil and muzzle rise of the .22 short are gone.  So the main issue today is complete and utter consistency in the trigger and an ENORMOUS amount of dryfiring time for all six shots (the five actual and the follow though sixth shot) to get the timing and movements ingrained. The electronic trigger is the best options for this, requiring no recocking when dryfiring or change in feel when live firing.

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Post by SilentAssassin 8/16/2021, 8:51 pm

CR10X wrote:Back to the OP's original question.  

For ISSF / Olympic Rapid fire (8, 6, 4 second strings), with the change in the RF event to requiring .22 LR round at the prescribed minimum velocity, the Pardini SP-1RF with an electronic trigger will probably be the best option.  If you are shooting Precision Pistol (USA Bullseye with 5 shot 20 second Timed Fire and 10 second Rapid Fire strings) the the Pardini Bullseye model with the mechanical perfectly adequate and many shooter use it. 

With the .22 LR requirement for ISSP / Olympic; the days of the almost zero recoil and muzzle rise of the .22 short are gone.  So the main issue today is complete and utter consistency in the trigger and an ENORMOUS amount of dryfiring time for all six shots (the five actual and the follow though sixth shot) to get the timing and movements ingrained. The electronic trigger is the best options for this, requiring no recocking when dryfiring or change in feel when live firing.

Electronic Pardini's are no longer manufactured.

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Post by chiz1180 8/16/2021, 8:57 pm

SilentAssassin wrote:
CR10X wrote:Back to the OP's original question.  

For ISSF / Olympic Rapid fire (8, 6, 4 second strings), with the change in the RF event to requiring .22 LR round at the prescribed minimum velocity, the Pardini SP-1RF with an electronic trigger will probably be the best option.  If you are shooting Precision Pistol (USA Bullseye with 5 shot 20 second Timed Fire and 10 second Rapid Fire strings) the the Pardini Bullseye model with the mechanical perfectly adequate and many shooter use it. 

With the .22 LR requirement for ISSP / Olympic; the days of the almost zero recoil and muzzle rise of the .22 short are gone.  So the main issue today is complete and utter consistency in the trigger and an ENORMOUS amount of dryfiring time for all six shots (the five actual and the follow though sixth shot) to get the timing and movements ingrained. The electronic trigger is the best options for this, requiring no recocking when dryfiring or change in feel when live firing.

Electronic Pardini's are no longer manufactured.
208’s are not currently manufactured either

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Post by rich.tullo 8/16/2021, 9:18 pm

Ok I recently tested the Dane Hoggle system which fits any accessory rail so if you have one on your Marvel Lower it will work. 

I tested Dane Hoggle System on my Volquartsen and I think it worked about the same as the barrel weight I had been using. It was maybe marginally better. 

I think the Pardini, AW93, Hammerli 208 and GSP are better for rapid fire but only if you clean targets already. I also think they are much better with iron sights but if you are using a dot that the difference is less. I suspect a 1911 with a Aimpoint 900sc and a Hoggle frame weight will have no noticeable recoil. I think the Marvel or the Nelson if you have a good barrel will shoot the long line as good as the EURO guns.
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Post by SilentAssassin 8/16/2021, 9:37 pm

chiz1180 wrote:
208’s are not currently manufactured either

Not due to excessive failure rates as was the case with Pardini's electronic trigger.
Many were being returned for repair or new components. The failures continued so Pardini discontinued guns with electronic triggers.
You can fact check that with one phone call.


Last edited by SilentAssassin on 8/16/2021, 9:45 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by chiz1180 8/16/2021, 9:42 pm

But you still can not buy a new 208 so my point is still valid.

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Post by Jon Eulette 8/16/2021, 9:53 pm

Haven’t heard anything from the OP?
208 or any pistol with higher bore line is not a good rapid fire pistol on multiple targets. It took some experimenting on my part to get the balance/weight just right on my 208S before I liked the recovery on the short line.
My MG2 is phenomenal for shot recovery. I just bought one with the electronic trigger. The trigger reset is scary fast. I’ve never found a pistol with a faster reset.
We’ve gotten many improvements working with  the factory and are getting reliable pistols out to shooters. Our customer service has been pretty good as well.
The trigger is also easier to adjust on both the mechanical and electronic MG2 than any euro pistol out there. Very intuitive and you can see what you are adjusting.
I’m a believer!
Jon
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Post by SilentAssassin 8/16/2021, 9:59 pm

chiz1180 wrote:But you still can not buy a new 208 so my point is still valid.

Wait a minute! Aren't you the same guy who advised me not to adjust the adjustable trigger on my Hammerli?
We saw how that went, Didn't we--
Your point certainly wasn't valid then.

Anyway, I believe everyone knows that you can't buy a new current stock Hammerli 208 so I will give you your glory here, Captain Obvious.
With the stunning failure rates of the Pardini with an electronic trigger, to the degree of a Major target pistol manufacturer discontinuing its pedigree altogether, would you want one?

A 30 some odd yer old Hammerli 208 is still running to perfection. Conversely, some of these Pardini's with electronic triggers didn't last 6 months.
Some validity for you.

Now on the other hand the Pardini with a mechanical trigger is a fine looking , nice shooting iron. It will  be really nice forever, and function as intended if taken care of for many many years to come..

I know little to nothing about the matchgun but it sure does look like a real nice gun. I mean really nice. Can't help but to wonder about the inherent accuracy level of that gun.

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Post by Jack H 8/16/2021, 11:51 pm

Compared to your 208, I must have the second best 22 pistol in the world. 

Pistol recommendation  Ruger1a-Jan08

This is 25 yards.  But I shot it only arm rested from my wrists back.  I still had to employ sight alignment and trigger control. 
The dot at that time was a 4 Dot set at 8.  The ammo was the purple box Eley Sport from Mexico. 

Re Rapid fire.  The International RF game has used mostly the Euro models.  And I believe most all those have the more angled grip we seem to avoid due to favoring the 1911 type angle.
I am sure the Euros have a reason behind this.  Take note of the Gold Medal pistol that McMillan used
Has anyone proven to themselves that avoiding the angled grips actually improves their overall results?  Could there be a factor of just not training and practicing to use the "slant" grip?
Maybe one can train out a mental block about the grip?
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Post by SilentAssassin 8/17/2021, 1:01 am

Jack H wrote:Compared to your 208, I must have the second best 22 pistol in the world. 

Nice! Really good shooting.
How consistently can you do that ?One time offering?
Nobody ever said " best gun in the world" I detect a little snideness there. But I'm ok with it.

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