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Irons vs Dot For Accuracy

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Post by Soupy44 Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

Assuming a shooter has good vision to see both well, which has the higher ceiling, irons or dot?

Discuss!

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Post by mikemyers Fri May 20, 2022 10:32 pm

After re-reading everything here, and dry-firing one handed for much of last night, I went to the range today with the Baer.  After re-learning "point of aim" again, and eventually discovering I wasn't holding the Baer tightly enough when I used one hand, I shot these two targets, both at 15 yards, left target two-handed, and right target one-handed.

I thought I understood "Point of Aim", but once again, I learned there was a lot more to it.  That army video helped a LOT, especially the feedback from you guys.

But for one wild shot one-handed, I'd be pretty happy.  I'm pleased anyway, it's all progress.

I must have one of those cognitive issues, as I think I know what to do, but it's wrong.  After what Cecil wrote finally made it through into my brain correctly, for the first time today, I think I understand.  All I paid attention to was the sights, and by some magical method, if I don't mess up as I'm shooting, if the sights looked good, the shot was good.  (....and if I jerked, like on my last shot, all the effort was wasted.)

The Les Baer has always been a "challenge".  For me, for the first time, today, it was enjoyable.  Or simply put, "fun".  Cool

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Post by Ed Hall Fri May 20, 2022 11:29 pm

Suggested edit: "All I paid attention to was the sights, and by some magical method, if I don't mess up followed my shot process, if the sights looked good, the shot was good.  (....and if I jerked, like on my last shot, all the effort was wasted.)"

A thought for all: Over my years of progress in shooting, I said to myself, "Oh, that's what is meant!" many times about the same fundamental, each time understanding it a little different.

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Post by SingleActionAndrew Sat May 21, 2022 12:10 am

Hey Mike, congratulations with your progress! The group is shifted but looks like it might be within the size of the scoring rings.

Are you placing the gun (1911) into your shooting hand with your non shooting hand? I find this easy to repeat every time (consistent grip).
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Post by mikemyers Sat May 21, 2022 9:48 am

SingleActionAndrew wrote:Hey Mike, congratulations with your progress! The group is shifted but looks like it might be within the size of the scoring rings.

Are you placing the gun (1911) into your shooting hand with your non shooting hand? I find this easy to repeat every time (consistent grip).
Thank you!

About your question, I used to think that wouldn't make a difference, but I have proved to myself lately that it makes a huge difference.  Not only do I place the gun into my right hand, using my left, I wiggle the gun the way Jon Shue (hope I spelled that right) to get it to the perfect spot, and then double check that the front sight is where it belongs.  I'm struggling to get that right every time, meaning I need to adjust the gun in my hand so it is pointed straight.  I'm not good enough yet do do this without checking.  Even at home, dry-firing, once the gun is firmly in my hand, I need to check this.  The tiniest change in my hand makes a huge change for the front sight.  Eventually I'll get this right automatically.

You wrote "I find this easy to repeat every time (consistent grip)".  

Another puzzle is where my right thumb should go.  I have "wrapped it around the gun" for as long as I can remember, but then I read that Baer designed the safety the way they did so people would rest their thumb there.  I found I shoot better by doing it their way.  

I found that if I don't "clamp down" with my right hand as I'm gripping the gun, the gun must be moving in my hand, as the group suffers.  Squeezing hard seems to cure that.  If I squeeze any harder, my hand starts to shake, so I slightly let off on the pressure.


What Ed Hall wrote is so true!!!!   I will go along with your edit, meaning think positively, and it seems that every time I think I didn't really understand something (such as what Cecil writes), a bit later I discover that I didn't understand correctly, and things change.  That doesn't bother me any more - I guess it means I didn't know enough the first time to appreciate what was written, and with more experience, I learn to do it better.  (Of course, that applies to everything I "think I know" now, as I've realized that later on, I might improve on what I thought I knew.  Each time, it's as if a light bulb turns on in my brain.  :-)


(.....and I should add that I've read The Pistol Shooter's Treasury, and Target Shooting Today numerous times, and every time I read it, I discover something I hadn't yet realized.)
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Post by WSR32 Sat May 21, 2022 10:51 am

Seeing as this thread has migrated to grip I might as well ask it here. I picked up a bullseye book that was written in the 1930s. The author of that book, although dealing with revolvers, recommends a light grip. Even so far as to say ones finger tips should not even touch the grip. This goes quite counter to every modern take on grip.

Is this a difference between revolvers and semi autos? (I don't shoot revolvers)

Has the sport just evolved? If so how were there Master and High Master (scores) being attained back then?

I found it very curious and as Mike is wrestling this very question maybe knowing when and how grip preferences change might help bring us to better understand why a firm grip is preferable.

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Post by SingleActionAndrew Sat May 21, 2022 12:05 pm

I believe one of the articles in that Shooter's Treasury speaks to only applying pressure to the grips forward and back, with strongest pressure at middle finger and perhaps no pressure with pinky. If using that approach then yes your finger tips wouldn't be white and you can put your thumb wherever comfortable

Have you read With Winning in Mind? It's often entertaining or heartwarming and is helping me (3rd time through and using the journal with my physical recovery toward shooting a particular 2700 and two EICs this August) bring together the ideas across Inner Game of Tennis, Golf is Not a game of Perfect, and the wealth of guidance available from the membership on this forum. The idea that our subconscious will seek to bring your performance in line with your own self image is one of many interesting ideas inside. I couldn't help thinking that we're observing this phenomena in your most recent experiences here on the board. It looks to me like you're the type of guy who can shoot a 45 one handed with the rest of us. One of the "real" bullseye shooters, not apart.

Have you thought about joining an NRA, CMP league or traveling to a 900, 1800 or 2700this year?
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Post by mikemyers Sat May 21, 2022 1:22 pm

WSR32 wrote:..........I found it very curious and as Mike is wrestling this very question maybe knowing when and how grip preferences change might help bring us to better understand why a firm grip is preferable........
Somebody can hopefully offer a good explanation of "why".

I can certainly give an explanation that works for me, but it may or may not be valid.
  • pick up gun with right hand only,
  • apply no more pressure anywhere other than enough to push in grip safety
  • fire gun while observing the front sight


  • Next, repeat the above, 
  • and apply pressure especially between the front pushing on the front strap and the palm pushing against the rear
  • fire gun while observing front sight


For me, with the loose grip, the front sight "wiggles".
For me, with the tight grip, the front sight may wiggle, but much less.
I'm aware that ideally, the front sight won't move - but I can only do that now, by using two hands.

I would be most anxious to know how to do this better.  
Applying side pressure is no good.
Gripping too hard makes my hand shake

Maybe, just like what happened with two hands, with practice I was able to do it better, and the more I practice one hand shooting the better I get.

Maybe, the reason why I shoot better with my right thumb on the Baer safety, that is adding more force pushing "forward" on the gun, that allows me to use more force pushing back from the front strap.

All of this points to the sights, as I can "see" whatever is happening to the gun as I am going my full attention to sight alignment.

Regarding "With Winning in Mind", for whatever it's worth, once I'm able to do something, I think believing I will do it is helpful.  I'm not there yet, physically.  But on the other hand, I now "believe" I can shoot well single-handed at least for a while, which is a huge change from long ago, when I first tried to hold the Baer up to my eye, but it was so heavy I had to immediately lower it.


Thank you for asking questions, that are beyond what I already know to ask about.  The guys who already know how to do this stuff just do it.  For some people, it's no big deal.   And I'm equally sure that anyone who "can do it now" will reach an age where it gradually becomes harder to do, either from old age, or health.  I've got a very good friend who made it to the top, but now that he's in his mid 80's, he can't match what he used to do.  I think there are a lot of people in these forums who feel that way.
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Post by mikemyers Sat May 21, 2022 4:32 pm

I apologize for seemingly ignoring a suggestion about reading "With Winning in Mind".  I bought the book, and read much of it twice.  I also bought and read "Bullseye Mind".  I thought if I ever got good enough to feel I was in a real competition, those ideas would help, but right now, I think my main issue is just building up the strength in my right hand so I can shoot with it without also using my support hand.

Anyway, sorry for ignoring the suggestion.  Every book anyone here has mentioned I have ordered, and I especially enjoyed and learned from the two books I mentioned earlier, "Target Shooting Today" and The Pistol Shooter's Treasury".  I wish I had read them a lifetime ago......
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Post by DA/SA Sat May 21, 2022 4:42 pm

mikemyers wrote:I think my main issue is just building up the strength in my right hand so I can shoot with it without also using my support hand.
How long does it take you to complete a shot?

Or to rephrase that...perhaps you could work on completing the shot sooner to reduce your hold time.
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Post by mikemyers Sat May 21, 2022 5:48 pm

I used to shoot as soon as I thought everything was good, but then I was reminded about this chart:
To answer your question, usually five or six seconds.
Wait until things are stable, and then continue to add pressure until the gun fires.

I suspect my issue with using only my right hand is cumulative - the first shot is fine, so is the second, the third is less so, and beyond four consecutive shots, my hand starts to shake long before the chart below below becomes effective.  It takes several minutes until I recover.  I'm not very strong to begin with.

Compared to my Les Baer Premiere II, my new Springfield SA-35 "Browning Clone" is effortless to shoot one handed - it is so light!  But the weight of the Baer is a great asset - it helps keep the gun stable.  I've wanted to shoot the Baer one handed ever since I first joined this forum.  To me, it was like wishing to win a lottery - I never expected it to happen.

Hey, from what I read, many years ago, everyone shot one-handed.  That's apparently just how it was done.  Anybody know why "most" shooters now use two hands?

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Post by james r chapman Sat May 21, 2022 7:09 pm

It’s easier ,
Requires less skill and dedication.

Usually much closer, bigger targets.

And participation awards are a big thing too!
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Post by mikemyers Sat May 21, 2022 8:14 pm

james r chapman wrote:It’s easier ,
Requires less skill and dedication.

Usually much closer, bigger targets.

And participation awards are a big thing too!
Jim, I'm lost - what are you referring to that is "easier", etc?
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Post by SingleActionAndrew Sat May 21, 2022 8:28 pm

James was responding to your question on why two handed shooting seems to be the norm.

There are all sorts in all sports. The last 2700 I shot was next to a range where they were shooting an organized steel challenge match. While scoring targets I could hear the shots and the targets ring. Most competitors did seem more interested in how many times a shot rang out rather than a target - pace of fire first and hitting the target is a nice bonus. But there were probably exceptions (good shooters); I couldn't hear their shots while I was shooting.
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Post by mikemyers Sat May 21, 2022 8:36 pm

Thanks!  Understood.

(Am I correct that this being a bullseye forum, the overwhelming majority of people here shoot with one hand?  Just curious...)
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Post by chiz1180 Sat May 21, 2022 8:56 pm

mikemyers wrote:(Am I correct that this being a bullseye forum, the overwhelming majority of people here shoot with one hand?  Just curious...)
Handgun not handsgun right? 

It probably is a fair assessment that most people that are here shoot one handed as required for bullseye matches, I would also say that it is a fair assessment that most who post here regularly compete or previously have. Probably why most here tend to discount two handed shooting as it in general had pulled people from the sport into other disciplines.
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Post by WSR32 Sat May 21, 2022 10:41 pm

At the range that Mike and I shoot at on our regular fun pistol or bullseye light matches everyone shoots two-handed. Only in the last 3 months have I decided to pursue bullseye at which point I switch to one-handed, I'm literally the only one in the shooter there. I've only been a member of the club a couple years but apparently under the last administration attendance of the matches had gotten quite slim. Going with the bullseye light format has really brought in a bunch of new shooters. We regularly have 20 to 25 shooters in the fun pistol match. Given the nature and the culture of South Florida our club is an anomaly. I for one am quite happy to have it!

Mike I'm with you on the lighter guns. I understand the value of a heavy gun and how it dampens movements but my position has been if you don't have the muscle to control that mass you just going to induce more wobbles and shakes. Hell I bought my Ed Brown as a lightweight for this very reason. But 6, 000 plus dry fire and 3, 000 live fire rounds in the last 9 months and now much prefer my all steel full size 1911 for bullseye work.

If you can put on the muscle mass then the heavier guns make sense. If you have difficulty putting on muscle mass I'm not sure you're doing yourself any favors by buying a heavy pistol.

The Ed Brown does make a nice carry piece.

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Post by mikemyers Sat May 21, 2022 11:29 pm

My first guns, dating from the 1970's, included a Model 29 44 Dirty Harry gun, another similar gun but with a 10 5/8" barrel, and a Model 41.  I also had a Colt Combat Commander, which Colt accurized for me.  Colt installed a Bomar sight.  I suppose I should dust it off, and try it this week.

My ammo back then was 230 grain White Box Winchester.  Then I was taught how to reload by the fellow who sold me most of my other guns.  With the new 200 grain Wilson 45 ammo I bought, I expect it will be much more enjoyable to shoot.

People at the range show me their "plastic" guns, which to me feel like they would blow away from a stiff breeze.  It is very strange to me holding a large gun that is so light, and I'm spoiled by the 1911 triggers I've gotten used to.  

My bullseye gun was going to be the Salyer/Springfield wad gun.  I shoot it the best, with a good red dot on top.  I think I would really struggle to shoot that gun one-handed!  Maybe eventually, but I need to take things one step at a time, meaning first I needed to get used to open sights, which led to many of the above questions.


Among other things, Cecil taught me to go to the range having already decided my objective for the day, and to try to not get sidetracked.  All the recent discussions have been synergistic, as I have one goal for each day, but that means doing everything else acceptably correct.  For the most part, this means "follow the instructions" for everything, and concentrate on ONE thing for the day.   .....and some days I just go to the range to relax, and shoot targets, and enjoy shooting.  I usually do that with other guns, not the very few guns I am "serious" about.
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Post by CR10X Sun May 22, 2022 11:49 am

Sigh......

(Am I correct that this being a bullseye forum, the overwhelming majority of people here shoot with one hand?  Just curious...)

Have you not read the actual title of this forum?


Bullseye-L Forum
A Forum dedicated to the sport of Bullseye shooting


This does not mean just shooting at a bullseye target.

The sport of Bullseye (aka Conventional Pistol, aka Precision pistol) has a set of rules that requires the use of one hand.  There are provisional and other matches that allow two hands, but they are generally NOT seen as Bullseye shooting as it relates to the sporting aspect, or the historical connotation of bullseye.  

This is not meant to be a definitive history, just a high level synopsis.  One handed pistol shoot in the US kinda evolved from the historical necessity of firing one handed from horseback or dismounted (the other hand generally used to hold the reins so the horse would not run off) or quickly as in self defense.  

This eventually became the standard for military training, etc.  And as, such that position became kinda ingrained for the use of the pistol (competitively or martially).  

It wasn't until the "modern age" when two handed pistol use became more used both for personal protection (with competitions to see what positions were best, even for personal protection / martial use).  Research Jeff Copper, "the modern technique" and the "leather slap" matches at Big Bear Lake to understand the development of two handed shooting and the rise of action pistol / combat matches.  Then peruse Practical Shooting: Beyond Fundamentals by Brian Enos.  Lots of mental / training ideas there, even for bullseye. 

And yes, action pistol may draw some shooters from bullseye, but probably not; since that's where most people start at these days as it is more related to the self defense / casual use of the hand gun.  

However I came from IPSC / USPSA, Bowling Pin and Steel Speed matches to bullseye, mostly because I like the higher level of precision and getting to shoot more during a match. Actual shooting time is very small for IPSC / Steel Challenge / Bowling pins. 

 But even today I still talk to a lot of action shooters frequently (Chris Tilley for one) and our conversations generally revolve around the similarities of grip, trigger control, sight picture, process training and mental outlook.  There is much more in common than there are differences IF one realized what is needed to produce an acceptable shot for the conditions and requirements of each sport.

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Post by mikemyers Sun May 22, 2022 1:48 pm

CR10X wrote:
Have you not read the actual title of this forum?

Bullseye-L Forum
A Forum dedicated to the sport of Bullseye shooting

This does not mean just shooting at a bullseye target.
Well, yeah, but respectfully, that wasn't my question, which was  Am I correct that this being a bullseye forum, the overwhelming majority of people here shoot with one hand?


There are almost 6,000 registered users, and probably twice that for how many "guests" come here.  I suspect many, MANY people come here because it is one of the better places to get good information.  Even of those almost 6,000 registered users, I suspect many of them don't come here looking for specific bullseye information.  I'm here because in early 2016, I was interested in target shooting, and this was the best place I could find.  As I recall, I did a search for TARGET SHOOTING, and the closest thing to it that I found was "Bullseye".  I had no expectations of competing, or to stop using my support hand.  That didn't happen until I got "hooked" on Bullseye.

Do a search for "Target Shooting Forum", and we will be one of them.  I think there are a lot of reasons why people join and participate here.  I know that you are correct in "This doe not mean just shooting at a bullseye target", but those people who just want to shoot at a bullseye target might come here, and join, anyway.  I thought I had a valid question.

By the way, did you read what WSR32 posted last night:

"At the range that Mike and I shoot at on our regular fun pistol or bullseye light matches everyone shoots two-handed. "





Perhaps we should get back to the question 'Soupy44' asked to start this discussion?
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Post by CR10X Sun May 22, 2022 3:12 pm

Well, subtle little hints like an actual classification (NRA, CMP etc.) and terms like DP, DR, 2600, 2650, trophy names, Presidents 100, Mayleigh Cup, etc., etc., in the signature lines of the posters should give you a clue to the fact they are using one hand. It might help to check out exactly what some of those things mean in terms of Precision pistol shooting as a sport. 

And if its not the majority; then maybe that's even better so we can bring them to light or else I should quit trying to teach pigs to sing.    

But, it really doesn't matter about the numbers because; I've said before, almost everything that concerns shooting better with one hand, goes for 2 hands, one finger or with your foot.  

And the same for concept of competition.  Even if one is just trying to get better at shooting in general, or at anything really; they truly are competing against the most devious, lying, stubborn, manipulative, negative talking, defensive, excuse making, underhanded obstacle to getting better.  Themselves.  That is true nature of competition; its not against a thing or someone else, but against the preconceived notion of what we are capable doing and attaining. (Notice Ed Hall reworded your comments in a positive manner.)  

So I'll keep trying to teach pigs to sing (if it's an interesting enough question or, in my opinion, deserves clarification, addition or just some general BS on my part). 

....until its time for the barbeque - North Carolina style of course. Smile  Wink

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Post by mikemyers Sun May 22, 2022 3:56 pm

CR10X wrote:(Notice Ed Hall reworded your comments in a positive manner.)
Hmm, I was going to write something about "being realistic", but the heck with that.  
Why not think like Ed?

Unless it rains, I'll be back at _my range_ tomorrow.
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Post by mikemyers Sun May 22, 2022 4:30 pm

Sure, why not.     

By the way, you wrote "trying their best".   I think you meant to write "doing their best".

I now expect to put ten holes in the 10-ring tomorrow with the B-8 target at 15 yards, one handed.
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Post by DA/SA Sun May 22, 2022 5:23 pm

mikemyers wrote:
CR10X wrote:(Notice Ed Hall reworded your comments in a positive manner.)
Hmm, I was going to write something about "being realistic", but the heck with that.  
Why not think like Ed?

Unless it rains, I'll be back at _my range_ tomorrow.
There it is again... Smile
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Post by CR10X Sun May 22, 2022 5:45 pm

First, no, in this case I think I used "trying" correctly to indicate that the words were used show that there is no "doing" yet.  So even if just one is just "trying"; that competitor (us) is right there using the words and thoughts that hold us back.  
 
An secondly, why not go shoot in the rain?  If its on the training outline, then do it if at all possible. Everything can teach us something, even if its only "let's not do this again if we do survive it this time". 

Lastly, i would suggest not bringing expectations to the range.  We bring a plan, a process, our equipment our goal (correct performance of the specific item or complete shot process each time; not scores) and the mental outlook that we will be relaxed and focused on our key thought or training for the day / match.  We write down what we plan to do, work on the planned training or just shoot the match, record our data, results, feelings, etc..  Later we review and revise our training plan or preparation process, etc.   

The thing about expectations is that if they actually occur, we will never know if we could have done better. And if we were thinking about our expectations, how are we ever going to do what we actually need to do to perform better than we did before since they are cluttering up our minds and distracting us?

CR


Last edited by CR10X on Mon May 23, 2022 5:04 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Irons vs Dot For Accuracy - Page 5 Empty Re: Irons vs Dot For Accuracy

Post by Jon Eulette Sun May 22, 2022 5:46 pm

I’ve shot more 890’s in the rain…….
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