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I forgot to repair my target!!!

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RodJ
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I forgot to repair my target!!! Empty I forgot to repair my target!!!

Post by fc60 9/26/2021, 9:56 pm

Greetings,

During Timed Fire, I forgot to hang a new target. Firing 5 shots I scoped the target to realize that 15 shots on the paper was wrong.

I was allowed to hang a repair center and continue firing the remaining 5 shots with the rest of the relay.

I was docked 50 points for firing the first five on the "wrong target".

At dinner we discussed the above with the following question...

Should I have not been allowed to repair the target and be docked 100 points?

I cannot find the rule in the rule book.

Cheers,

Dave
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Post by john bickar 9/26/2021, 11:46 pm

Letter of the law, I think you lose the whole target.

Spirit of the rules, if it's a league or a club match, I'd let it slide and do my best to figure out your true score. We don't really need to be driving people away from the sport with petty rule BS.

State Championship or higher, I would look at you and say, "Dave, you're experienced enough to know that you should repair your target. This target is a 0."

I don't have the rule book at hand, but I certainly would look at it before giving a competitor a 0 on a target.
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Post by john bickar 9/26/2021, 11:52 pm

*lightbulb*

Ah, whether you sacrifice 50 or 100 points on the target, when you realize your mistake after the first 5 rounds, that's the question.

I'd let you sit out the second string and let you fire a makeup later, so that you only ate 5 rounds.
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Post by sharkdoctor 9/27/2021, 5:28 am

Been there, done that, lost the points per the judgment of the NRA zebra at the time at a Regional match.  He quoted no rule and I obeyed.  However, a later check of the rulebook showed no specific rule.  I had the correct target, just excessive (10 extra) hits.  Why wouldn't one score the lowest 10 hits and be done?

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Post by CR10X 9/27/2021, 6:04 am

Good question.  I can see it going either way based on the following (unless it was a B6 center for a B8 match or vice versa). Note 14.10 opening conditions.  If the previous string(s) shots can be identified, then maybe allowed to be scored.  But on the other hand it was the competitors responsibility to frame the correct target (even the replacement).  

FYI my local matches we have used 14.10 on a couple of occasions (since the scores for the previous string(s) were available). I considered the situation partially my fault as match director / range officer for not completely checking all targets after the competitors finished scoring, but that's just something I try to do to ensure fewer refires and keep the match running smoothly.
 
However, I have never argued with a NRA Referee.  I simply say thank you and get back to shooting.  

18.15 Responsibility - It shall be the competitor’s responsibility: 

(e) That when targets are framed by the competitor, it is the competitor’s responsibility to frame the correct target for the specific match and distance. (See Rule l4.7(b)).

14.7 Hits on Wrong Target or Bullseye - Hits on the wrong target or bullseye are scored as misses. A wrong target is defined as a target other than that: 

(a) Assigned to the firing point upon which the competitor is squadded (assigned). 

(b) Intended to be used for the match, stage and distance in that event concerned.

However:

14.10 Excessive Hits - If more than the required number of hits appear on the target, any shot which can be identified by the appearance of the bullet hole as having been fired by some competitor, other than the competitor assigned to that target, or as having been fired in a previous string, will be pasted and will not be scored. If more than the required numbers of hits then remain on the target a complete new score will be fired and the original score will be disregarded, except: 

(a) If all hits are of equal value, the score will be recorded as the required number of hits of that value. 

(b) The competitor shall be allowed to accept a score equal to the required number of hits of lowest value. 

(c) If a competitor fires fewer than the prescribed number of shots through the competitors own fault, and there should be more hits on the target than the shots fired, the competitor will be scored the number of shots of highest value equal to the number fired, and will be given a miss for each unfired cartridge. 

(d) If a competitor, by mistake, fires more than the required number of shots, the required number of hits of lowest value will be scored. This shall not be considered a refire as outlined in Rule 9.14.

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Post by SteveT 9/27/2021, 7:47 am

My first thought was that it was handled correctly. As soon as the error was identified, it was corrected and any shot fired were lost. 

But after thinking about it for a while... If the shots can be identified then the target can be scored and you have a score card with the previous score or, hopefully, individual shots, so after the target is fired again I think the correct response is to identify 20 shots on the target and subtract the shot values or score from the previous target.

Thanks for posting... It's making us think about what we do because that's what we always known/heard and what the rule book actually says.
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Post by Ed Hall 9/27/2021, 9:12 am

I used to firmly believe, by the rules, that you could identify the previous shots* and score the remaining, as long as the correct target had been fired upon.

In a discussion on that exact situation between myself and an official referee (under a simple setting, not for a match decision) they stated that "right target" includes a new target/center.

As to when to fire the second string, I wouldn't interrupt the entire line in the middle of two strings.  I would have the shooter wait through the completion of the target and then repair and fire.

* Previous shots, according to the referee, refers to pasted shot holes from previous strings, that have lost the paster.  As a match official, I might stretch this to one that was forgotten, as long as it was proved to already exist prior to the string.

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Post by straybrit 9/27/2021, 10:36 am

I can only remember encountering this once as a match director. Club match. It was all 10 shots. We simply went through the score card for the previous string, ticked off the holes that matched those hits and scored the remaining ones.  I was going on the 'identified previous shots' rule - my interpretation of it anyway. 

I rather suspect I wouldn't have been so considerate at a state championship match.

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Post by CR10X 9/27/2021, 11:57 am

I do not disagree with Ed's post and the interpretation from the referee.  Just providing some information and background, although the rules could be a little clearer regarding what constitutes "incorrect target" such as also including previously used or fired upon, etc.

Again, the best course of action appears to be to not fire at all.  So be sure to check your target before you leave the target line AND when you return to the firing line.....
 
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Post by RodJ 9/27/2021, 3:12 pm

Good judgment comes from experience. And experience comes from bad judgment. This thread is worth a lot of pain to a newbie like myself. Also helpful knowledge about how to handle rule decisions and to hear experienced folks discuss the rules.

(here I am quietly taking notes)

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Post by PhotoEscape 9/27/2021, 6:33 pm

IMHO it is between shooter and scorer!  During last NRA Nationals in Aterburry I was scoring a good shooter, and he forgot to replace repair center.  20 shots were fired on same target, and all 20 registered.  I didn't even bother any of the referees.  Instead I extrapolated shots from prior series and recorded score as a difference.  So, I'm with SteveT (or might be that he is with me on this, must be an IL thing), but I'm of the opinion, that if shots of prior series can be easily identified and isolated from subsequent one, shooter should not be penalized.

AP
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Post by Wobbley 9/27/2021, 6:58 pm

I know in rifle if a shot blows off a paster, the target then has excessive hits and excessive hits rules apply. In the case extant, Dave would complete the 10 shots then take the low 10 on the target. A hit, but not fatal.
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Post by xman 9/27/2021, 8:19 pm

PhotoEscape wrote:IMHO it is between shooter and scorer!  During last NRA Nationals in Aterburry I was scoring a good shooter, and he forgot to replace repair center.  20 shots were fired on same target, and all 20 registered.  I didn't even bother any of the referees.  Instead I extrapolated shots from prior series and recorded score as a difference.  So, I'm with SteveT (or might be that he is with me on this, must be an IL thing), but I'm of the opinion, that if shots of prior series can be easily identified and isolated from subsequent one, shooter should not be penalized.

AP
Was it the 22 match? Other wise 20 shots of CF or .45 on a repair center makes for a very hard extrapolating case as the multi shot single hole groups would pose a great difficulty in figuring out.

And the shooters/officials at the line will wonder what's going on with the delay at that one target.

Personally I vote for low 10 count. Shooter has the responsibility for his/her target and repair.

2cents worth. But what do I know
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Post by Kermit Workman 9/27/2021, 9:02 pm

I think a referee would score all ten shots as misses. What if there was a cluster between nine or ten ring or ten ring and X-ring. Under normal circumstances if more than three shots forms a cluster and rounds can not be accounted for the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt and the "missing rounds" are given the higher value. In this case the 10 over nine or X over 10.
If more than 10 rounds are allowed on a target, then a shooter could not ever replace a center and all shots in the cluster would get the higher value if existing over two scoring rings.
For a local match, I would ask for objections from other competitors and allow the competitor to re-fire if no objections.
I have seen a competitor hang the wrong repair center. He put up a 50 yard center at the 25 yard line. The referee's decision was all 10 shots were scored as misses.

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Post by PhotoEscape 9/27/2021, 9:46 pm

xman wrote:Was it the 22 match? Other wise 20 shots of CF or .45 on a repair center makes for a very hard extrapolating case as the multi shot single hole groups would pose a great difficulty in figuring out.

And the shooters/officials at the line will wonder what's going on with the delay at that one target.

Personally I vote for low 10 count. Shooter has the responsibility for his/her target and repair.

2cents worth. But what do I know
Yes, it was 22 match.  And it was a clear cut real situation as opposed to any hi-pathetically possible one.  When I state that it is between shooter and scorer, there is not difference IMO as if it would be scoring normally shot target.  When there is a disagreement between shooter and scorer, referee gets call.  Otherwise,TMBK,  if referee injects itself into situation without request from either shooter or scorer, that calls for range alibi.  Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.  If there is no specific rule that helps handling particular situation, benefit of the doubt helps shooter.  Think of it from another real life situation - you forgot to plaster that hole outside of the repair center from previous string and now you have eleven.  If scorer wants to be a difficult and claims amnesia, yes it goes against shooter and 10 lowest counts.  However most of us remember how previously scored target looked like....     

As I said, all of the above is IMHO.

AP
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