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Trigger Jerk is a Myth.

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Post by funski 12/15/2021, 3:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

Article by John "Shrek" McPhee on trigger control being a myth.  Just wondering if any of you have read it and have any comments.

Thanks in advance
Jim

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Post by bruce martindale 12/17/2021, 8:54 am

Shooting is  controlling 3 motions, the pre shot wobble, the trigger induced motion TIMs, and the motion during recoil. All 3 matter.

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Post by PMcfall 12/17/2021, 9:10 am

We should also get Alec Baldwin's views on the matter Smile
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Post by Ed Hall 12/17/2021, 10:31 am

bruce martindale wrote:Shooting is  controlling 3 motions, the pre shot wobble, the trigger induced motion TIMs, and the motion during recoil. All 3 matter.
Trying to control wobble is a losing battle.*  Learn the elements of the wobble and learn to operate the trigger without changing anything about it, such that the shot fires during a null (that you learned about) in the wobble.  As to motion after recoil, just be sure to not add any disturbance, until after the bullet has left.  There are many more aspects to this.  The most important is that all pressures on the gun from shot to shot must be balanced and consistent.  They all affect the gun while the bullet is in the barrel, and therefore, eventual shot placement.  Remember that the trigger needs a balanced operation as well.  If the trigger is applying a lateral force during operation, that lateral force is interrupted between sear disengagement and trigger stop contact.

* Through training you can minimize and learn the elements of your wobble, but to try control it during a match is detrimental.  In order to control something, you have to have judgment involved and that goes against accepting your hold.

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Post by Froneck 12/17/2021, 11:14 am

Ed's correct! Trying to control wobble is a waste of time, learn to accept it. If anyone ever watched Darius "Doc" Young shoot when older would think he was shooing flies away from his line of sight with his gun. He was asked at camp Perry after shooting a great score on a windy day how he compensated for the wind. He replied what wind? I shake so much I didn't notice it! Floyd Aikman a 2650 shooter and great Service pistol shooter back when the Army issued 230gr military ball ammo especially the TZZ stuff. I watch him one day and it looked as if he was shooting double loaded ammo. Gun recoiled quite a bit. Back then it was said that the 1911 ball gun had to be griped hard until oil came out of the grips! Floyd said he holds the gun tight enough so that it will function and then lets the recoil take the gun where it wants to! I started doing the same, legged out in no time!
 Learn to bring the trigger back until the hammer falls with out moving the gun!

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Post by jjfitch 12/19/2021, 10:43 am

The article is clearly about combat shooting since all the photos are of the "Glock-o-matic"! I can see how his hypothesis minimizes trigger jerk. Combat accuracy seems to be 12 rounds to "minute of barn door"! 

Smiles,
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Post by Froneck 12/19/2021, 11:21 am

Some of that action shooing is at the side of a barn while inside! But some phases get quite accurate. Adam tells me that Bianchi Cup shooting requires a bit of accuracy. Top shooter are shooting perfect score, X's make the difference. The Hard one is the mover, target is traveling right to left at 10'/second. Then left to right at the same speed. He lost 1999 with a perfect score but one X less than the winner. One stage is at 25 yards, another event is at 50 yards so they don't have much room for error. Granted they hold the gun with 2 hands and some events are fired from the prone position. Good trigger control is still required but bullseye shooting it's very important!

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Post by msmith44 12/19/2021, 12:56 pm

Froneck wrote:... One stage is at 25 yards, another event is at 50 yards so they don't have much room for error. Granted they hold the gun with 2 hands and some events are fired from the prone position. Good trigger control is still required but bullseye shooting it's very important!
Some action pistol stages require one hand shooting, both dominant and weak hand. USPSA stages require moving from spot to spot and may require shooting while moving. Two-handed shooting is allowed under NRA Precision Pistol Rules (Sec. 24). Perhaps those who are so against this should try shooting a 900 using two-hands and see how easy it is to shoot Elite level scores. No fair resting your elbows against your body, arms extended.

One of the reasons you see so many Glocks at club level IDPA and USPSA events is that the Glock Foundation sponsors monthly action pistol events. Competition is limited to, not surprisingly, Glocks.

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Post by rsp 12/20/2021, 9:53 am

There is a video demonstration that goes with this article where the coach slaps the trigger with a wrench while a student holds it on target, and the student still gets a great group. The caveat is that the group is shot at a distance from which we normally score targets, not shoot them. There is a 25 yard line in bullseye but there is no 2.5 yard line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USbP4dPNoKA

I'll interpret the article as being about what advice not to give new shooters who are throwing their shots badly. Anybody who has gone to shoot at a busy indoor range has seen some beginners struggling to stay on paper at really short distances, like 5 yards or so. I think it's unhelpful to tell that shooter "you're jerking the trigger", because to get results that bad, they are probably shoving their whole hand forward and maybe changing grip pressure in anticipation of recoil, and attention on the trigger finger can't help them until they solve those larger issues.

The author probably does a lot of work training people from zero (or worse) to "on paper plate at 15 yards", and in that context I can see how focusing on grip instead of trigger finger would make sense. It probably delivers better bang-for-buck in terms of reliably getting a new shooter to show improvement in a 1hr class.

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Post by Froneck 12/21/2021, 5:15 am

As target shooters we all know grip is important. Placing the gun in the hand in the correct position is important and why top shooter do not pick the gun up with the shooting hand. Pick it up with the other hand and place it in the shooting hand will insure correct grip and never "Milk" the grip! (Milking the grip is to fumble with the grip with the shooting hand while aiming at the target) Also a good target shooter's "Jerk" is different than a new shooter. Too often new shooters pull the trigger will all the fingers and since only one finger is on the trigger the others simply move the gun.

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Post by Chase Turner 12/24/2021, 2:35 pm

I've read a lot of drivel in my day, and this particular article takes the cake. I especially enjoy how the author attempts to prove his bona fides via his service in the Army; this is the same Army that has a unit dedicated to marksmanship, and even has a chapter in one of their books on how to properly trigger a pistol (hint: you shouldn't jerk). It is a big army though, so maybe he didn't hear about the AMU when he was in.

The other thing that comes to mind is the belief that because he has videoed people running around playing army, that he somehow gains insight into what is actually happening in the hand. Even high speed cameras cannot fully reveal all the muscles working, the nerves firing (or not), and the various parts and pieces that makes up a grip that can execute a proper trigger press. That unit he hasn't heard of has done high speed analysis, though, and they are still pretty sure, it's important not to jerk a trigger.

Makes me wonder- if I take videos of the squirrels in my backyard, and I watch these enough times, will I become an acrobat? According to this article, the answer does seem to point to yes.

Just another knucklehead, like that Kyle Lamb guy in G&A. We need less of them penning their thoughts, lest they start to believe they are revealing insight.

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Post by Tim:H11 12/24/2021, 8:39 pm

Wanna prove trigger jerking theories? Shoot an air pistol.
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Post by Froneck 12/25/2021, 3:14 am

The problem new shooters have is bad information! Lot of articles and books on shooting are wrong. Too many of the authors know nothing about shooting, they simply collect whats available on write about it! In addition may members at clubs do the same thing! I was a marksman for 3 years, doing everything I could to get my scores up. Unfortunately I listened to the BS from others, they didn't lie but simply thought it was good information! They were doing the same think listening to bad info! It all came to an end when a good shooting friend of mime brought 4 high shooting Masters (High Master was not a classification at the time) to talk to me at Perry. They looked at my guns and what I was doing plus what information I had. I found what I was doing was wrong, next year when I returned to Perry I was a High shooting Expert (shooting Master scores) and when I returned home there was a Master card in the mailbox!
 New shooter listen to what those of us that provide information here that have learned to shoot Master scores, we are trying to help. We have learned what it takes to shoot top scores as well as mistakes we made listening to bad info! Too many so called coaches don't know what they are doing! One of the AMU's coach was so bad he had Bullseye shooters transferring to other styles like international. He was fired and Adam made coach! According to Adam the safest place to be when that coach was shooting was in front of the target!
 Most everyone knows the fundamentals. It's not very hard to hold the gun on target at 25 yards rapid fire but something happen when the shot is fired and bullet hits the target out of the 9 or 10 ring. As Jon said it's trigger, the trigger and noting but the trigger!

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Post by Jack H 12/25/2021, 5:22 am

x


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Post by Jack H 12/25/2021, 5:44 am

x


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Post by BE Mike 12/25/2021, 1:24 pm

I admittedly never read the article, but I will say that people who don't shoot precision pistol sports, don't have very high standards regarding accuracy. Most of them are happy to shoot a 6" group at a maximum of 10 yards. In that case, and considering the pistols that they use, trigger control isn't really that important. When shooting two-handed from a decent stance just about anyone can do that by slapping the trigger.
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Post by Pinetree 12/25/2021, 1:49 pm

Yeah, he's comparing apples to oranges.. for that sport/discipline they just need to hit the plate.

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Post by Froneck 12/26/2021, 4:52 pm

My club was bullseye only for a long time but we eventually added an action range. Soon a few action shooters joined bullseye shooters during our weekly shoots. (900 every Wednesday) They never lasted very long! Being informal distance could be selected for slow fire by simply hanging the target at 25 yards. Even grip was select-able so that if a new shooter wanted they could use two hands. None lasted very long, most quit after a few weeks but none lasted more than a few months! Yeah they had all the excuses why they quite shooting bullseye. All of them knew everything about how to shoot a good score. None asked for help nor would listen if suggested. One time Bonnie Harman was helping the AMU teach during the shooting school they run every year at Camp Perry. He started by saying he is going to divulge the secret to shooting a good score! He then followed by saying the secret is there is no secret, learn the fundamentals as outlined in the manuals the AMU is handing out our any of the others that are similar.
 Learning the fundamentals is the secret to good shooting and the most difficult to learn is trigger control! It's probably difficult because every new shooter thinks they knows how to pull the trigger. Jerking the trigger requires all the fingers to tighten which tends to move the pistol. Learning to pull the trigger straight back with out moving the gun is very important and why top shooters say that trigger control is very important to getting a good score! As Jon put is it's the trigger, trigger and more Trigger! Avoid advise form those not shooting the same game! Getting advise from an action pistol shooter is not going to help one bit if you intend to shoot free pistol or air pistol!

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Post by bruce martindale 12/26/2021, 6:29 pm

You misunderstood. Your minimum wobble is what it is. True, you can't control the endpoint. It takes some effort and time to get to that state. And that also depends on proper grip and stance

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Post by Axehandle 12/26/2021, 8:17 pm

Good read here guys... Do what you can to lead them to the light.   In my retirement job as a Range Safety Officer and Instructor I hear and see stuff on a daily basis that you wouldn't believe.

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Post by NuJudge 12/31/2021, 2:30 pm

This month, his article is about how the radial pistol correction  chart is Junk Science.

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Post by bruce martindale 12/31/2021, 3:17 pm

The Wheel of Misfortune? Ya, total crap

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Post by Froneck 1/1/2022, 3:57 am

When "Shrek" becomes a Bullseye  Master or High Master I might listen to him!  I seen Action shooters miss the entire  silhouette target from 5 yards with 2 hand hold!

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Post by Ed Hall 1/1/2022, 9:14 am

I do not dispute that the Wheel of Misfortune covers valid errors in the process, but I am opposed to using it as a training tool to diagnose errors.  You should not look for all those errors, unless those errors are what you're trying to duplicate.  If you study all the errors, when will you have time to study the correct processes?  You should look for the elements that produce the desired results.  Seek what you desire.

Along that exact line, you should not use the ball and dummy drill to look for flinching.  You should use the drill to look for stable sighting through hammer fall.  Again, seek what you desire.

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Post by Allgoodhits 1/4/2022, 11:59 am

Every perfectly executed fundamental, or element of your entire shot process can be negated in an instant with a jerk of the trigger. The trigger manipulation is the eraser or maker of all good things. If trigger manipulation is true, in essence, you are letting the gun shoot, not making it shoot. Said another way, let the shot break, don't make it break. My $.02
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Post by bruce martindale 1/4/2022, 6:59 pm

Wheel of misfortune is only valid going one way, the wrong way. If you do this...you get THAT.  Can't focus on how to make errors.

In reverse, if you got THAT, it isn't because of whats on the chart, (you did this one thing) it could be a hundred other things including a perfect execution that was pointed and held in wrong place

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