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New survey - where do you look?

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Post by mspingeld 12/22/2021, 12:47 pm

Brian Zins says, look at the target, like throwing a ball.
Jon Eulette says, look at the dot, it's your front sight.

I've recently experimented with look at the target. Good results but too soon to say.

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Post by xman 12/22/2021, 1:01 pm

What happen to a Marksman category?
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Post by mspingeld 12/22/2021, 1:17 pm

I guess I've been stuck in expert for soooo looooooong, I forgot marksman. I messaged admin to see if it can be fixed.

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Post by chiz1180 12/22/2021, 1:17 pm

Target. Looking at the dot is equivalent to looking at the rear sight.
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Post by mspingeld 12/22/2021, 1:18 pm

Jon Eulette told me that the tube is like the rear sight and the dot is like the front sight.

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Post by mspingeld 12/22/2021, 1:59 pm

ATT: MARKSMAN

Sorry I left you out. If you PM me your answer, I'll compile the results and include you. Figure I'll wait a couple of weeks to get a good number of responses.

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Post by chiz1180 12/22/2021, 2:10 pm

mspingeld wrote:Jon Eulette told me that the tube is like the rear sight and the dot is like the front sight.
That is a John Zurek thing, he told me something very much the same to that. Using that method you effectively are ignoring having the benefit of the longest possible sight radius, the x/center of the bull and the dot. 

If have ever seen John Zurek shoot, especially slow fire, he holds for a very long time. Most people do not have a hold like his, might explain why the above works for him.
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Post by Wobbley 12/22/2021, 4:01 pm

Depends on your dot setting.  If you turn up the dot so it looks like the eye of Sauron, you’ll look at the dot.  if you turn it down so it’s there but not glaring, you’ll look at the target.
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Post by Jon Eulette 12/22/2021, 4:25 pm

When my hold is really good I can look at the target or the dot. When my hold is problematic (shoulder has many issues) there is no way in hell I can look at the target and break a good shot. So I rely on the fundamental of accepting hold and aligning the dot and tube as if front and rear sights. I treat it as sight alignment.
One thing we all need to remember is that there are professional shooters, extremely good civilian shooters and the rest of us. When someone shoots 5 days a week they can play the game differently than someone who is lucky to shoot one day a week. Zins and Henderson both look at the target. Zurek the dot.
There is also a huge mental portion of aiming. It’s easier to mentally break shots when your hold is good. It is mentally harder to break shots when your hold is all over the place. If your looking at the target and your fit is moving around like a comet, you’re gonna sling crap everywhere. If you align the dot and tube and accept the hold you will shoot better. So if you want to look at the target, I recommend you work on your hold a lot. 
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Post by xman 12/22/2021, 4:30 pm

Wobbley wrote:Depends on your dot setting.  If you turn up the dot so it looks like the eye of Sauron, you’ll look at the dot.  if you turn it down so it’s there but not glaring, you’ll look at the target.
Unfortunately, I need the "eye of Sauron" setting as one less number setting and the dot tends to get lost or the lighting outdoors blots out the dot to the point it is just about invisible to find on the target paper (white) and thereby finding it in the black just takes too dang long even for SF.
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Post by Jack H 12/22/2021, 8:39 pm

mspingeld wrote:Brian Zins says, look at the target, like throwing a ball.
Jon Eulette says, look at the dot, it's your front sight.

I've recently experimented with look at the target. Good results but too soon to say.

I believe Zins added that he comes back to the dot if his hold is not good.
And I recall use a dim dot

My take is don't look at the target unless your wobble is quite small. 

Zins, long time ago:
"
Before I get into MY theories on looking at the target or the DOT (not iron sights) I have a couple of things that I need to throw out there. First, I am a very jovial kinda guy and take very little personal or too serious. Second, The comments submitted by those who quoted The Great Bill Blankenship and the Late Don Nygord. They are legends in the game and at no point would argue to say that they are wrong. I submit to you another way of accomplishing the same goal of shooter better in another way. I learned to shoot under the guidelines that Nygord and Blankenship wrote about. I have had the opportunity to shoot with and learn from some of the greatest marksmanship instructors the Marine Corps has had to offer. We were allowed to think out of the box and try new ideas. I only stake a small bit of claim to the ideas that I propose as they were a collaboration of Andy Moody, Mitch Reed, Mario Lozoya, Chris Hill and myself.
Basically we were trying to get Marines to 2600 as fast as possible because unlike the Army we Marines do not get the luxury of staying on the Team for life. We came up with ideas to get Marines better, faster. Last, before I get into the Dot conversation, I have found that many shooters think entirely too much. This is not rocket science, as if it I were I would not be a shooter. Hence, I am not smart enough to shoot bad. Erich Bujung, when he was the Olympic Pistol Team coach always said, "No stinking thinking". The mind is a terrible thing to waste and in Bullseye on the firing line the mind is just a terrible thing.


First to address a couple of questions. I use a 1" Ultra Dot, not the match four dot, though it is an awesome scope and recommend it for anyone with failing vision. On a bright day outdoors my dot level is on about 8 in order to have small dot. With a dot I am not a big advocate of the Iris thingy on my shooting glasses. Iron sights thats okay.


At some point or another we have thrown a ball to someone right? Think about, when you threw the ball what were you looking at? The Ball or the person or object you were throwing at. Iron sights involved 3 items. Front sight, rear sight and the target or aiming area. With the dot you have but 2 items in play. The DOT and the target. (before I forget, I do understand the difference between sight alignment and sight picture, but thank you for the reminder) When I first started shooting Andy Moody and I were talking about looking at the target VS looking at the sight. I was young and knew no better so I tried it. Keep in mind this was my first year as a bullseye shooter. I proceeded to shirt my first ever 100 long line with my .22. Heck it was my first 100 longline period. The Team Captain called everyone into circle and asked me tell them what I did that string and if I learned something. I told him I turned my dot down and looked at the target as oppose to the front sight. Oh My God. He about had a fit, but learning had occurred and not just for me. From that moment on it became not so uncommon for Marines to look at the target.


Here lies the problem. Many shooters that try this and do not get the desired results are not truly looking at the target. Keep in mind to shoot a dot in Bullseye and do it well you have to either focus on the target or on the DOT. Too many people are focusing somewhere between the DOT and the target. This is equivalent to looking at the target with iron sights. Not gonna work. Be true to yourself when determining where your focus is.


FOR ME, I find that when looking at the target I accept the wobble of the dot more and do not get hung up on the trigger. NOTE: if you have a big wobble area this is harder to achieve. There are days that my dot may not sit as still as I like and on said days I will bring my focus back to the dot. So if you have a decent hold you should be able to do this with a good deal of success. If you a big wobble, the true method of looking at the dot is great. Remember that is how I learned to shoot.


Does the DOT need to stay centered in the scope. The answer to that is a great big MAYBE. First of all we humans like to see things geometrically correct (I don't even know if that makes sense) What I am trying to say is We like to see a circle in a circle in a circle. If we had change sitting on our desk at some point or another we are going to stack it in the following order quarter, nickel, penny and then dime. If you stack another way that just means you are little more creative the average bear and good on ya. So it makes sense to us to put the dot in center of the scope. Some dots you have to put in the center or you will get
some parallax and the dot is really not where you think it is. Andy Moody shot with the dot in the bottom of his scope. Because that is where it rested when he brought the gun to the target. Why fight it, why MUSCLE the gun to place you want it to be as opposed to allowing the gun to rest where it wants to be? Make sense?


I hope that this helps and I am prepared for the onslaught on questions and comments that are sure to follow. Ha Ha. Please keep in mind that when it comes to shooting pistols, that I have had the opportunity to shoot with and learn from the likes of the earlier mentioned Marines and Steve Reiter, Doc Young, Jim Henderson, Jimmy Dorsey and have learned from all of them. I would like to think that I have an original idea to make people shoot better, but I am pretty sure that all I can do is relate what I have learned and maybe shed a different light on it. However I would like to think that if I wrote a book someone would still but it. If not for the informational value at least from the entertainment.




And Alan Barcon:
"
Something I have started doing, that is making a difference, is my focus point. I used to focus on the dot when shooting. I had some conversation with Brian Zins and he convinced me to try focusing on the target instead of the dot.
Brian's rationale was that our red dot scopes are like a scope. So shoot it like a scope. I now turn the dot on at a very low setting--enough to be able to see it but not be the focal point.


By focusing on the target, which is stationary, I don't have to deal with thoughts of centering the dot in the middle of the target. That subconscious effort to keep the dot centered on the target interferes with trigger pull. I have become an advocate of trigger control! It is the most important thing. What convinced me of this recently was a training session where I was working on slowfire.


I had several shots break where the dot was on the edge of the black. After the shot broke, I said, "Shit! That is probably an eight or a seven!" I scoped my target and it was a 10 (right on the edge of the 10-ring). I sat down and thought about this and realized that the dot scope exaggerates our hold. By not interrupting my trigger pull, which would have introduced a sight misalignment, the shot was within my 10-ring hold.


Now, I use the dot to settle the gun on the target (first shot). Once I start my trigger pull, I am totally focused on the target. Since the target is stationary, I do not have to worry about wobble, dot movement, etc. All I worry about is focusing on the target and I let my subconscious worry about the rest.


You guys should try it out and let me know what you think. Don't do a Fred Cosgro and give up on it after 10 shots. Try it for at least 500 rounds of practice. After 100 rounds, you'll start to notice the difference.


Let me know what you guys think.


Alan Barcon
















Alan,
Ron and I talked about this some time ago. I can't remember where we wound up but I THINK I'm still concentrating on the dot. I've actually been trying to go back to iron sights but that will also take a while!
Mike McShea




Having that dot on a very low setting will help you concentrate on the target. You'll know if you're focused on the target because any dot wobble will not detract your eye from the target. I think this is one of the keys to shooting great scores--we have to trick our subconscious into thinking we have no wobble. By focusing on the target, which does not move, we have given ourselves the "perfect hold without a wobble".
Alan
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Post by chopper 12/22/2021, 11:19 pm

A lot of good talk said so far, some shooters learn one way some another way. I used to watch the dot, but found myself searching for it in timed fire,( I did have poor grip,stance, and position back then) also.
 I been looking at the target for about 6 months now and enjoy it, I do line drills and some holding exercises most everyday with pistol only. For me it keeps me steadier than weight training. After cataract surgeries I wear clear glasses and no script with dots. I do like a dimmer dot in slow fire and a little brighter with sustained to help in recovery. To help me out on bright sunny days, I put on a polarizing filter to get contrast on the bull so I can have the dot intensity lower.
 Trigger is the most important thing for me, it's something I have to practice constantly. I like to shoot irons, 10 meter and center-fire revolver also, I only use dots on my 2 bullseye pistols.
Stan

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Post by Shue8531 12/23/2021, 7:19 am

Michael, you should word your question differently, it’s not about who looks where, it’s about who is getting better/winning, i.e.-(master) started off looking at the dot , I changed and started looking at the target, (High Master) now I’m winning, or insert verbiage here.....

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Post by mspingeld 12/23/2021, 7:33 am

Hey Jon, Happy Holidays!

Not sure I understand what you're saying but, so far, 46 responses. Pretty even so far; 44% dot, 57% target...BUT, if you look at just the masters & high-masters, it's 11% dot, 20% target.

Is this supporting your point? As shooters move up through the ranks and experiment to see what works best, they're finding that a shift from dot to target gets better results?

Another possibility is that dot works better for newer shooters but, as they improve their grip, trigger control, focus, etc. they're then able to benefit from the shift from dot to target.

Not sure I'm making my self clear here. It's the difference between: A-Looking at the target will get better results. vs. B-Marksmen/sharpshooters will do better looking at the dot but, as they progress, will benefit from transitioning to looking at the target.

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Post by CR10X 12/23/2021, 9:01 am

Well, to put my spin on Jon's comment.  I think the choice (for want of a better term) is more reflective of one major point.  Does the shooter trust his wobble or not?  If the shooter trusts the wobble, then focusing on the target is a breeze.  (Also refer back to Brian's comment about the wobble and some days.)

If a shooter does not completely trust their wobble, then focusing on the target can be a great temptation to change back and forth during the shot process. (Moving to a target focus without a good basic shot process, etc., could make it very easy to fall into the "snatch it as it goes by" trap as well.)    And neither of those are ever really productive.

That also seems to support the ability of shooters to move from Expert and Master to Master and High Master when they go to focusing on the target.  The trust in the wobble (and ability to hold the gun parallel to the intended line of flight) is there so they can just see the process and complete within the appropriate time.  Therefore gaining even more trust the shot process (and just as importantly for SF, knowing when to start over.)

So, if one is still working on grip, keeping the dot centered in the tube, trigger process, etc., maybe focusing on the dot and keeping it centered in the tube will get one to the point of trusting the wobble and process.  Then maybe transitioning to the target can get them to the next level.

The other main point is that you never know until you give it a really good try.  And you try something else again and review the basics every time you reach a plateau. 

Just thinking out loud (and baking pumpkin pies) this morning.

CR

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Post by Froneck 12/24/2021, 8:35 am

When the red dot sight first came out it was said that to look at the dot as you did the iron sights. As time went on it changed because the iron sights had to be looked at plus the front sight had to be aligned with the rear. However since the dot is fixed to the gun alignment is not necessary, the dot indicates where the bullet will hit the target when properly adjusted so the target is the place to look. Adam uses the target to look at and if I'm not mistaken so did the other shooters on the AMU team. If not all I know most did!
 But as Jon pointed out it's best to do what works for you! Trigger control and Hold is still important. Alignment is now the dot and the target, which one to directly look at doesn't matter because both are being looked at! Looking at the dot and it's not on the target will not be evry good! Looking at the dot would be somewhat similar to using the sub 6 hold with iron sights if anyone is familiar with that concept.
 As to survey missing Marksman why ask? Marksman is anyone that has shot the required number of shots down range and score is below 85%. If half the shots fired are not anywhere on the target or the backer he will still be classified as marksman.  I would advise anyone learning to shoot not to ask a Marksman for shooting information. Master and High Master should be where questions are directed! Not wanting to put anyone down but the lower classes have not yet mastered the skills needed. On the other hand when there is a discussion about the skills required Marksman seem to know and are first to tell a new shooter how to shoot great scores! Everyone has to start someplace, I was a Marksman for quite a few years! My questions were directed to Master shooters and as a result I went from Marksman to Master in one year!

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Post by Wobbley 12/24/2021, 12:03 pm


 Master and High Master should be where questions are directed!
Even here be careful.  When I was shooting an M1A in service rifle, I was advised to NOT ask members of the service teams questions as very often they were just shooters, not coaches nor were they armorers. (Don’t even TRY any questions on ammo at all!).  Not to denigrate some very good shooters, but this is apparent in many articles on shooting.  You get a ton of statements like “develop a good grip”, but seldom do they ever state how.  The advantage of this site is there are some very good HM and Master class shooters willing to give advice.
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Post by Froneck 12/24/2021, 1:08 pm

I'm not going to answer for rifle shooters. However I know many AMU Pistol shooters and my son being with the team for 22 years I got to meet quite a few of them including former members. Asking an AMU member about ammo is a waste of time. They don't reload and use what has been tested to be best for their pistol including lot number by the gun smith. They do not work on the guns, they can't do much more than clean the gun everything else must be done by Army gunsmiths! The coach does help the new shooters but after they reach a certain level the rolls reverse in that the shooter tells the coach what he needs to improve. The AMU did run a shooting clinic at Perry. I know prior to the time that sniper was shooting up DC the AMU could be requested to have a clinic at the requesting club.Adam did one that same year in PA prior to when the jerk was captured.

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Post by RodJ 12/24/2021, 1:16 pm

I’m not even a marksman - nra won’t send me anything and don’t seem to return calls. In any case, as unclassified I don’t look at the dot or the target. To the extent that I focus on any aspect of a dot sight, I look at the box that the red dot is stored in. Most of the advice I read was that I should learn to shoot irons so that’s what I am doing. Oh well. It didn’t cost much.

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Post by bruce martindale 12/24/2021, 1:52 pm

Both. 
Initially, the dot to learn how to control wobble, after that the target, using the trigger to keep the dot centered.

I had lost good grip control and suffered with it for quite som time. Fixed that and improved greatly but no recent match results with the new grip method.

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Post by Froneck 12/24/2021, 2:45 pm

The Red Dot sight is a good training aid! Iron sights make it hard to see mistakes but with the red dot you can see them. When Adam was younger I had him shot with the red dot, after a while he didn't want to shoot iron sights. When he when into Army he shot the highest with service pistol tan any other member, that year he won NTI individual, won it a second time and in 2019 won Presidents 100. Few years before he set Bianchi Cup record to be first person to shoot perfect score in Metallic division.(If you don't know they are all shot with iron sights) If my memory is correct when Adam was coach of AMU Pistol he had new shooter start with red Dot!
 My suggestion is a new shooter should start with Red Dot sight!
 As to not getting classified have you shot NRA registered matches and scores were sent to NRA? Your score from your first match will give you a Temporary Classification, you do not have to shoot every match unclassified! Everyone shoots first match as unclassified and only the first match!

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Post by Jon Eulette 12/24/2021, 3:34 pm

So we have 5 basic fundamentals; stance, breathing, sight alignment, grip and trigger. 
In order of importance I would say in that order from lowest to highest. Trigger pull trumps them all. Obviously it helps to be consistent in each area. I wouldn’t get wrapped up on the looking at the dot vs the target. Is has less importance than trigger control. Most shooters have a fairly good understanding of the first three fundamentals. Gripping will make you or break you at 50 yds. Trigger control rules both the 25 and the 50.
Learn how to squeeze the trigger! If your a lower classification shooter, have a master try your trigger and take their advice whether to have it changed or improved. The money spent on a really quality trigger pull is the best money you can spend to improve your game.
Trigger, trigger, and more trigger.
Jon
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Post by msmith44 12/24/2021, 7:51 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:So we have 5 basic fundamentals; stance, breathing, sight alignment, grip and trigger. 
In order of importance I would say in that order from lowest to highest. Trigger pull trumps them all. Obviously it helps to be consistent in each area. I wouldn’t get wrapped up on the looking at the dot vs the target. Is has less importance than trigger control. Most shooters have a fairly good understanding of the first three fundamentals. Gripping will make you or break you at 50 yds. Trigger control rules both the 25 and the 50.
Learn how to squeeze the trigger! If your a lower classification shooter, have a master try your trigger and take their advice whether to have it changed or improved. The money spent on a really quality trigger pull is the best money you can spend to improve your game.
Trigger, trigger, and more trigger.
Jon
You left one of those fundamentals out of the mix. The one that makes all the others relevant. And, it ain't loading five rounds. I'm not trying to be a smart ass and I might not be a high master but I did shoot HM scores in an ISSF discipline many years ago. If you read Ed Hall's contributions over the years you'll see that nothing happens without a consistent raising of the handgun into the target zone. Stance, sight alignment, grip and trigger are all dependent on raising the pistol consistently so that the sights end up in the middle of the target zone, or wherever you want them located, e.g., six o'clock. If, you can raise the pistol into the midst of the target zone, then you build from there. My coach used to have me shoot blindfolded occasionally just to remind me that I had to do at least two hundred reps seven days a week just on raising the pistol. When you have confidence that the sights will be where you want them every time then... 

I've only been shooting bullseye for three months but I'm building on that fundamental.

Have a GREAT Christmas.


-m-

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Post by Jon Eulette 12/24/2021, 9:23 pm

Ahh, the 6th fundamental, shooting blindfolded. Now I’ve heard everything lol.
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Post by msmith44 12/24/2021, 10:11 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Ahh, the 6th fundamental, shooting blindfolded. Now I’ve heard everything lol.
Jon
Actually, the sixth fundamental is raising the pistol not shooting blindfolded. The blindfold drill is checking on the consistency of your raise. 

You're better than snarky responses for whom I have a lot of respect not only for your past posts but record as a shooter member of the AMU.  

The blindfold drill was done by my Modern Pentathlon shooting coach SGT. McCahey and replicated by a coach for the Air Force team at Lakeland Air Force Base in 1963. While I know you keep up with this Modern Pentathlon shooting in 1962-63 is equivalent to the 25 meter ISSF rapid fire event. As you should know, this is now a women's event and is not included in the Men's Rapid Fire Event. It is the only woman only event on the Olympic calendar.

I think I outlined the importance of the raise. As I posted, Mr. Hall has addressed this, albeit indirectly, in many his posts both on and off this site. While the "raise" is not as important in SF, putting the sights as a function of the raise on the ten ring for TF and RF is important. You can have a "perfect" grip and trigger but unless that dot is on the ten ring you won't score a ten. Stance is important BUT it is not a sole determinant of consistent placement of the dot in the X ring. 

One more thing for you to disagree with. There is no perfect grip or trigger finger action. The "Perfect" is in the results. If you want to test the "Perfect" watch your sights AFTER you break the shot. IF your trigger press and grip are perfect for your body, the sights will move down vertically into the target area. This doesn't matter if it's rimfire or center, one hand, two hand or shooting with your foot... My former ARMU coach at MP Training Center taught me that and the AF agreed. "Former" means he was assigned MP duty.

AGAIN, I POST THIS RESPECTFULLY, but this is my experience as a competitive MP shooter.

BTW, if you don't believe me ask Bill Askins if he recommended me to Col.Mendenhall in '62. If you want details on the evaluation process for the ONLY non-military athlete at the MP Center at Ft. Sam Houston, I'll be glad to describe it via PM. The broken jaw, the rupter quad and competing against international MP teams after 4 days of shooting instruction/training are highlights. BTW, I won with a revolver. I wasn't allowed to ride or fence.


Best wishes for a happy and productive New Year. Hope you can build a 9mm for me at some point. Feel free to PM me.


-m-

msmith44

Posts : 49
Join date : 2020-10-13
Age : 78
Location : Washington State

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