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Ball and dummy

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Post by 285wannab 1/3/2022, 10:04 am

Tried something new. And that was using some dummy rounds.  I was shooting my 22lr. Ruger.  And wow I am all over the place.  Pulling my dot down quite a bit and big circles.  When I dry fire, it is nothing like this.  I was thinking how can even get the scores I do with this reaction.  I am thinking the bullet is gone and the recoil hides it.  One think about my shooting is I don't have good groups.  They could be tighter.  Well I want them tighter. lol  How can I figure out the cause of this?  Is this just trigger?  This is something new I can work on.

285wannab

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Post by Froneck 1/3/2022, 3:17 pm

What I assume your saying is that everything looks great as it does when dry firing but you see the difference when while shooting you chamber and "fire" a dummy. You are anticipating recoil! If it don't happen when dry firing you are doing something assuming the gun will fire when you react to the dummy! Usually happens with larger calibers.

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Post by 285wannab 1/3/2022, 3:57 pm

I guess your right about anticipating recoil ... even though there is not much recoil.  I was surprised by how much movement there was.  I am thinking this could be an ah-ha moment if I can calm down the movement.  Not sure if this is trigger or grip issues or both.  Where do I start?

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Post by Froneck 1/3/2022, 4:21 pm

Simply put you only need a firm hold, don't grip too hard. It's often said to shoot a good service pistol score with 45 ball to grip the gun so that the oil was squeezed out of the grips. That's wrong! You can try seeing that by holding a plastic bottle about 2" diameter. You trigger finger is easy to flex like pulling the trigger, the harder you squeeze the harder it is to move the finger! To often what happens is when squeezing the trigger and the change in trigger pressure is felt indicating hammer release the grip pressure is increased rapidly moving the gun! It's all angles, a slight angle will move impact quite a bit. You have to practice shooting the gun as you did during dry fire. If the movement during dry fire is within limits then shooting with live ammo the same way so as when a dummy is "fired" the result is the same as it was when dry fired!

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Post by Ed Hall 1/4/2022, 9:06 am

This is actually one of my favorite subjects on which to comment. . .

That said, a common error is to look for what causes the jump.  Froneck has replied to this, too, but I'll add some additional suggestions.

First, don't try to find out what causes what you don't want to see.  Instead, learn to cause what you do want to see.  You can spend all your time studying what you don't want to do or studying what you'd like.  I think the latter is more beneficial.

After all that, start with the idea that both dry fire and live can be improved.  From there, as Froneck mentioned, live fire like you dry fire.  I'm going to add, dry fire like you live fire.  You're going to want to improve both and bring them to match as close as possible.  As an example of dry fire adjustments, you may find that the trigger operation during dry fire needs to be sped up to match what is needed for live fire.

I'm going to add in a note here:  Be careful when you evaluate your process.  Once the bullet has cleared the muzzle, you can do a lot of things, as long as those things weren't started prior to that instant.  This is where a lot of follow through discussion ensues, both in relation to how to perform it and what it really is.  In regards to ball and dummy (BnD), if you are all over the place due to perceived recoil recovery that wasn't needed, that is different from having a jump at the hammer fall.

Back to BnD:  Dry Fire, Dry Fire, Dry Fire and then perform the BnD drill.  Expect each shot to be a dummy.  And look for the same sighting result for both.  After a dummy round, dry fire some more and mark the differences without assigning a judgment.  If an aspect of dry fire needs improvement, make and look for the improvements and then look for those within your next string of BnD.

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Post by Allgoodhits 1/4/2022, 9:21 am

Perhaps over simplified. 
Stop making the gun shoot. Let it shoot. 
IMO, it is not sights or dot, then trigger, it works best for me sights or dot and t r i g g e r.
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Post by 285wannab 1/13/2022, 2:32 pm

ED said "I'm going to add in a note here:  Be careful when you evaluate your process.  Once the bullet has cleared the muzzle, you can do a lot of things, as long as those things weren't started prior to that instant.  This is where a lot of follow through discussion ensues, both in relation to how to perform it and what it really is.  In regards to ball and dummy (BnD), if you are all over the place due to perceived recoil recovery that wasn't needed, that is different from having a jump at the hammer fall."


Maybe the movement I saw was after the bullet has left the barrel.  And also like Froneck pointed out maybe I am gripping to tightly causing movement.  I don't know, not easy.
What I did was build up my trigger so at release my finger is perpendicular.
I am thinking maybe a Scatt is a good way to see what is going on and to figure everything out.

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Post by Froneck 1/13/2022, 3:06 pm

Before you do anything you have to evaluate the gun and ammo. Test the gun with the best ammo available, It must shoot at least 10 ring group. Then your ammo, the two combined must also group in the 10 ring!!  Anything else is a waste to time. Any hole in the target outside the 10 has to be created by you and that is what needs to be corrected! If you have something that will group 7 ring size you don't know what you did! You may have fired a perfect X but you have a hole in the 7 ring has you wondering what you did wrong and worse if you shoot a 7 but the hole is in the X your Ah Ha moment will lead you to think that 7 hold  was the way an X is done! Scatt will not help is you gun and loads are not accurate!

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