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Ball and dummy

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rburk
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Post by 285wannab 1/3/2022, 10:04 am

Tried something new. And that was using some dummy rounds.  I was shooting my 22lr. Ruger.  And wow I am all over the place.  Pulling my dot down quite a bit and big circles.  When I dry fire, it is nothing like this.  I was thinking how can even get the scores I do with this reaction.  I am thinking the bullet is gone and the recoil hides it.  One think about my shooting is I don't have good groups.  They could be tighter.  Well I want them tighter. lol  How can I figure out the cause of this?  Is this just trigger?  This is something new I can work on.

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Post by Froneck 1/3/2022, 3:17 pm

What I assume your saying is that everything looks great as it does when dry firing but you see the difference when while shooting you chamber and "fire" a dummy. You are anticipating recoil! If it don't happen when dry firing you are doing something assuming the gun will fire when you react to the dummy! Usually happens with larger calibers.

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Post by 285wannab 1/3/2022, 3:57 pm

I guess your right about anticipating recoil ... even though there is not much recoil.  I was surprised by how much movement there was.  I am thinking this could be an ah-ha moment if I can calm down the movement.  Not sure if this is trigger or grip issues or both.  Where do I start?

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Post by Froneck 1/3/2022, 4:21 pm

Simply put you only need a firm hold, don't grip too hard. It's often said to shoot a good service pistol score with 45 ball to grip the gun so that the oil was squeezed out of the grips. That's wrong! You can try seeing that by holding a plastic bottle about 2" diameter. You trigger finger is easy to flex like pulling the trigger, the harder you squeeze the harder it is to move the finger! To often what happens is when squeezing the trigger and the change in trigger pressure is felt indicating hammer release the grip pressure is increased rapidly moving the gun! It's all angles, a slight angle will move impact quite a bit. You have to practice shooting the gun as you did during dry fire. If the movement during dry fire is within limits then shooting with live ammo the same way so as when a dummy is "fired" the result is the same as it was when dry fired!

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Post by Ed Hall 1/4/2022, 9:06 am

This is actually one of my favorite subjects on which to comment. . .

That said, a common error is to look for what causes the jump.  Froneck has replied to this, too, but I'll add some additional suggestions.

First, don't try to find out what causes what you don't want to see.  Instead, learn to cause what you do want to see.  You can spend all your time studying what you don't want to do or studying what you'd like.  I think the latter is more beneficial.

After all that, start with the idea that both dry fire and live can be improved.  From there, as Froneck mentioned, live fire like you dry fire.  I'm going to add, dry fire like you live fire.  You're going to want to improve both and bring them to match as close as possible.  As an example of dry fire adjustments, you may find that the trigger operation during dry fire needs to be sped up to match what is needed for live fire.

I'm going to add in a note here:  Be careful when you evaluate your process.  Once the bullet has cleared the muzzle, you can do a lot of things, as long as those things weren't started prior to that instant.  This is where a lot of follow through discussion ensues, both in relation to how to perform it and what it really is.  In regards to ball and dummy (BnD), if you are all over the place due to perceived recoil recovery that wasn't needed, that is different from having a jump at the hammer fall.

Back to BnD:  Dry Fire, Dry Fire, Dry Fire and then perform the BnD drill.  Expect each shot to be a dummy.  And look for the same sighting result for both.  After a dummy round, dry fire some more and mark the differences without assigning a judgment.  If an aspect of dry fire needs improvement, make and look for the improvements and then look for those within your next string of BnD.

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Post by Allgoodhits 1/4/2022, 9:21 am

Perhaps over simplified. 
Stop making the gun shoot. Let it shoot. 
IMO, it is not sights or dot, then trigger, it works best for me sights or dot and t r i g g e r.
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Post by 285wannab 1/13/2022, 2:32 pm

ED said "I'm going to add in a note here:  Be careful when you evaluate your process.  Once the bullet has cleared the muzzle, you can do a lot of things, as long as those things weren't started prior to that instant.  This is where a lot of follow through discussion ensues, both in relation to how to perform it and what it really is.  In regards to ball and dummy (BnD), if you are all over the place due to perceived recoil recovery that wasn't needed, that is different from having a jump at the hammer fall."


Maybe the movement I saw was after the bullet has left the barrel.  And also like Froneck pointed out maybe I am gripping to tightly causing movement.  I don't know, not easy.
What I did was build up my trigger so at release my finger is perpendicular.
I am thinking maybe a Scatt is a good way to see what is going on and to figure everything out.

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Post by Froneck 1/13/2022, 3:06 pm

Before you do anything you have to evaluate the gun and ammo. Test the gun with the best ammo available, It must shoot at least 10 ring group. Then your ammo, the two combined must also group in the 10 ring!!  Anything else is a waste to time. Any hole in the target outside the 10 has to be created by you and that is what needs to be corrected! If you have something that will group 7 ring size you don't know what you did! You may have fired a perfect X but you have a hole in the 7 ring has you wondering what you did wrong and worse if you shoot a 7 but the hole is in the X your Ah Ha moment will lead you to think that 7 hold  was the way an X is done! Scatt will not help is you gun and loads are not accurate!

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Post by 285wannab 1/24/2022, 5:39 pm

I wanted to follow up and say the gun is grouping fine. I get a dime size group at 50ft.  I only shoot 50ft, in my league.
It is defiantly shooter issues.  Maybe losing concentration. 
One thing I am doing is shooting to fast.  That was brought up in another post about timing shots.  I always have 2 to 3 seconds left in Rapid.  And I try to shoot Timed and Rapid the same.  I will try and slow down and focus more on the center then getting the shots off.
 I don't use a scope to check my shots.  Something I should look into.

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Post by Froneck 1/25/2022, 6:16 pm

I think you should start shooting white paper, no target on it. I'm sure if you check the web you can find instructions shooting white paper. Simply put shoot at a piece of white paper, start with 2 hand hold if needed. Keep dot in center of the paper but don't attempt to be exactly in the center. Don't look at holes from previous shots or group of shots. Advance to next level when group is 10 ring size, makes no difference where! Sights can be adjusted later. Continue until 10 ring size group is achieved one hand hold in 20 seconds. Then do same with rapid fire, don't speed your shots, speed will pick-up as you get better. In Practice a 6 hole 10 ring group is better than 10 all over the place, continue until rapid fire group is 10 ring size in 10 seconds! Slow fire will be next!

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Post by rburk 1/26/2022, 6:43 pm

I have been following the procedure described above by Froneck, shooting at blank paper at 50 foot indoor range.  It has helped me with trigger control for my 45.  I am currently shooting at about a TF pace, and using the blank paper for a target allows my mind to focus completely on the shot process.

I use blank 8-1/2" x 11" copy paper, it is cheap and it works at 50 feet.

You will be surprised how your eye automatically finds the center of the paper.

I am using a dot sight.

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Post by -TT- 1/27/2022, 7:56 am

You can make the drill even better if you're willing to crank your sight vertically. I've never been able to ignore the holes.

Hang two sheets of paper, one above the other. Adjust the POI so that when you sight on the upper sheet, the hit falls on the lower. This way, the lower paper is invisible so you'll never be distracted by the holes, but the group will print perfectly.

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Post by 285wannab 1/28/2022, 3:25 pm

I haven't been able to shoot much but, dryfiring every day. One thing that I have understood from these posts is to slow down.  Focus more on making a good shot than the time.  Trigger finesse.

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Post by CR10X 1/29/2022, 7:19 am

Admittedly, I am a "words = mental image" kind of guy when it comes to the mental aspects of training.  Our minds sometimes uses our words to create different feelings or reactions other than what we are looking for.  
So this is not meant to disagree with your words if it works for you, but to provide a different perspective.   

I would not use the words "trigger finesse".  "Finesse" can create the mental picture of hesitation, trepidation, starting and stopping, etc.   

I would suggest thinking about the trigger process with words such as smooth, continuous, increasing pressure, decisive, timely, natural, coordinated (with the decreasing wobble area) and always straight to the rear.  
 
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Post by 285wannab 1/29/2022, 4:39 pm

I like the words smooth continuing always  straight  to the rear pressure.  And throw in slow.
About the mental picture... A couple of  weeks  ago I  was  shooting  a match.   And in the slow fire portion  a group started  to form just a little left of the center. I could even see a bit of the white of the back side of the target  that got turned  around. It made a good  aimpoint.  This has been  my main complaint.  Not getting  a  group.  Pushed three out of the group  but still in the black.  So I was happy.  The timed and rapid not so much.  I think  about what happened.  And I think  I'm rushing shots.  I shot my average but  wasted a slow fire target. Have to make a mental note to slow down.  After recoil I come back into the black and bang. 20 times. Not really  aiming and just pulling the trigger.  Got stuff to work on.

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Post by CR10X 1/30/2022, 6:31 am

Personally, I put "slow" in the same category as "finesse", but if it works for you, go for it.  

Now if it feels like time slows down or you want to be in control, then that's a state of mind and and not connected to the trigger process and I like that.   

Trigger process is neither fast nor slow, its exactly whatever the right speed is for the shooter to complete it when the wobble is getting its smallest and approaching center without disturbing the alignment of the gun.

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Post by Ed Hall 1/30/2022, 9:32 am

Slow is OK in the overall, if it refers to being calm and relaxed.  If you are referring to slow for the trigger operation, I will disagree.  Too slow a trigger manipulation translates to a lot of judgment of the process and conscious involvement.  You should actually be working, as CR10X mentioned, on a smooth, deliberate trigger that is not disturbed by the sight picture and does not disturb the sight alignment.  In dry fire, you might check to see what Bill Blankenship wrote in the Pistol Shooter's Treasury under TRIGGER CONTROL - Lesson II - Positive Pressure:

William Blankenship wrote:... Therefore, I tried to see how fast I could squeeze the trigger and not disturb the weapon.  When I first started with the fast trigger squeeze, I had sudden movements of the sights to one side or the other.  Then I started trying to figure out exactly how to get the trigger to release without any movement.  I tried many systems before finding the one that works.  I call this "positive pressure."
If you are having good results in sustained fire, use that trigger operation for slow.  You can slow down the rest of the process to help in remaining relaxed, although most of the slow fire process close to the shot break should also match the sustained fire.

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Post by chopper 1/30/2022, 8:24 pm

Oh yeah, BINGO !

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Post by 285wannab 2/1/2022, 3:39 pm

I wanted to thank those that contributed to this post.
So, I am going to take out the word slow and add the word controlled.  If I am in control of my shot the speed of my trigger pull won't matter as much.  It will be what it is.  I will be honest there is no control when I shoot timed and rapid.  From recoil, my dot goes in the black and I pull the trigger. And I have plenty of time to control the shot better.   Plus, I shoot timed and rapid at the same pace.  I don't know where that habit came from.  This is something I can improve on.

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Post by Aprilian 2/2/2022, 1:23 pm

I stumbled on a drill that helped me.  This only works with a conversion without hold open (although I could see it working with loading a dummy round into the mag first).  

I load a few magazines with all different numbers of rounds. I pick one at random (without looking). After the second shot goes off, I tell myself that the next round is a dummy.  Roughly half the time I'm right, but when I'm not and it is a live fire it thinking "Dry Fire" the pistol stays more solid.

YMMV
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