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rapid fire cadence with metronome

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Post by SmokinNJokin Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:39 am

Had an interesting idea im going to try out for training.

I have been working on getting a nice, smooth cadence for rapid and squeezing the trigger consistently every shot, accepting my hold and perfecting shot timing. I got the idea of using a metronome to perfect this, while firing on a blank target. 

Double check my math:
In my mind, i give 0.5 seconds to acquire the bull and break first shot after the turn, fire the 5 shots and i like to dry fire #6 right as the target turns. That way, every string i get practice shooting the turn and if i ever am late and have a skidder, its a non-event. 

So 10 seconds, minus 0.5 for the turn, and 1.9 seconds between each shot. This comes out to almost exactly 32 BPM on the metronome. 

I think a good training progression would be to load several magazines and just do string after string on a blank target, possibly even with eyes closed, just smoothly squeezing trigger in cadence to metronome and maintaining grip. 

I will report back after I try it out.

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Post by james r chapman Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:00 pm

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Post by Jack H Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:03 pm

Work on technique more.  "Cadence" or rhythm will come.

Do not work on the less than ideal technique fast.
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Post by Wobbley Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:53 pm

Gunny Zins said this about “Cadence” : “Bullseye shooting is not close-order drill.”
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Post by Sa-tevp Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:36 pm

"At that point, make sure you walk down range and take a look at the targets of the good or okay shooters, compared to those of a great shooter. You will find that the better the shooter, the worse the cadence tends to sound as compared to a not so great shooter. Typically the lower the score, the better the cadence. Why is that? It’s because they are more concerned with getting all their rounds off in the allotted time frame, rather than making them well-aimed shots.


Once at the Regional in Canton, OH a gentleman approached me after I had shot what turned out to be a pretty good center fire 900. He said, “I was watching you shoot timed fire and you have no cadence.”

I simply replied, “Thank you,” and walked away. I had shot a 100-10X and a 100-8X."



https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/12/9/brian-zins-on-fixing-a-bad-sustained-fire-string-in-precision-pistol/



(My mom is a librarian so I am kinda obligated to share references that I am aware of.)
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Post by Steve in MI Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:50 pm

I would recommend 2 shot drills.   When I first started I used a timer and just concentrated on making good shots.  If I didn't get all five that was OK the 3 or 4 were usually pretty good.  Didn't take much practice and I was under the 10 second mark.

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Post by SmokinNJokin Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:45 am

Perhaps I should clarify, as the response has been overwhelmingly negative... I only have the opportunity to fire on turning targets a few times a year, usually in the summer so I have a very long period of about 6-8 months where i do a lot of training without ever having the time reference. What tends to happen in this training period is that without the time reference, I speed up too much and tend to waste a few seconds of every rapid fire string.

I take all of your points about focusing on 'making good shots' but I don't have any issue making good shots. I just started using a red dot after many years of irons and my current training goal is accepting my arc of movement and consistently squeezing trigger, regardless of where the dot is in that arc. The metronome was to give me a reference point of just how long 1.9 seconds is between shots so I don't rush. I was intending to use this as a training tool, one of many different drills I run, for smooth cadence for rapid and squeezing the trigger consistently every shot, accepting my hold .

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Post by SteveT Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:08 am

Cadence is the wrong goal. 5 well aimed shots is the goal. When shooting well there will be a consistent cadence but it is the result of the gun following a consistent path through recoil and consistent sight acquisition and trigger pull. It is the result of a good string. Not the cause of it. 10 seconds is plenty of time to fire 5 well aimed shots.

If you find that shooting with a cadence produces better groups, that means that your conscious mind is messing up your shots, most likely by interrupting trigger pull. Getting it out of the way and thinking about something else (cadence) can be an improvement, but take the correct lesson from it. It is thought control that needs fixing, not timing.
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Post by Tim:H11 Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:42 am

Oh boy.. if you focus on cadence and stick to just cadence, what happens when your sight picture isn’t right by the time you’re suppose to fire? You practiced firing on a timeline, so you fire, and it’s not a ten. 

I would highly recommend shooting one well aimed shot, learning to recover directly, re engage the trigger and get a second quality shot off. Work this until you can add more shots until you’ve created a five shot string of quality shots. 

I see too many people - and I did it too back when I didn’t know any better - trying to learn how to fire five shots on a 10 second target. That’s the conditions in which we are expected to perform in. Not the conditions we train under - or at least not all the time. 

Did you run before you learned how to walk? Probably not. Don’t train a cadence - it’ll breed snatching shots. Train quality shooting. Speed is a byproduct of learning something well. Don’t train speed. Train the shot.
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Post by SmokinNJokin Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:48 am

Understood all, thanks for the guidance.

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Post by john bickar Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:03 pm

If you don't have regular access to turning targets, you can get one of the shot timers that are used for action shooting (e.g., PACT or the like). That will give you a beep to start and a beep to finish, and will give you your splits. That will give you the opportunity to work on firing 5 well-aimed shots within the given time limit, and the feedback from the splits is one of many data sources that you can use to evaluate your overall series execution.

I obviously don't have the accomplishments to quibble with guidance from Brian Zins; however; I have shot a lot of International Rapid Fire, and if you aren't breaking your shots within a bracketed "cadence," you're sunk. Bullseye time limits are positively luxurious compared to 5 shots in 4 seconds (and the action pistol shooters will tell you that 5 shots in 4 seconds is positively luxurious).

Bullseye sustained fire is about shooting the best shots that you can within the given time constraints.
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Post by Rush223 Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:57 pm

I’m 3 hours away from the monthly match in Asheville, NC. I built a range at home and installed an automated turning target system. It works great, is easy to set up or move, and costs about as much as an entry level 1911. Originally I would set the system up on a public range and practice. Setup probably takes 10 minutes. 
I’m currently struggling through the Marine Training manual and currently working on one shot drills.  I can do about 25 cycles before my brain is fried. I try to practice when it’s dry and over 35 degrees. 

No affiliation with the company and haven’t had contact with them since getting the equipment running. There was some shipping damage which they resolved with no issues. 
https://portabletargets.com/

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Post by pgg Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:59 am

There's a phone app that I use when I practice timed and rapid fire called "Splits" - it's free.

All it does is listen for shots and time them. You can set a delay period, it beeps, you start shooting, and when you stop it tells you how many seconds after the beep each shot broke.

I like it because it tells me AFTER the string is finished how much time I took, so I shoot without any time pressure. Right now my focus in practice is
1) shooting good shots
2) shooting good shots
3) shooting good shots
4) getting faster in rapid fire
and so when I practice I just try to shoot good shots without hurrying.

When my process is good and I don't worry about time, I'm finishing the rapids in 8 to 12-13 seconds. Which results in a saved round about half the time, if I was shooting for score. Not the end state I want, but shooting 5 bad shots in the allotted 10 seconds isn't good either.

Enough good shooters have told me that eventually, I'll speed up, and for now I'm taking their word for it, and not worrying about timing.


That, and forcing my stubborn brain to start squeezing before I've recovered from recoil even though the sights are off paper at 12 o'clock, are the two things I'm focusing on now. If I try to work on more than a couple things at a time I find I do them all kind of badly and nothing improves.

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Post by Oleg G Sat Jan 22, 2022 8:16 am

I'll do a plug for fellow forum members:

Member Slavka001 makes a great portable target turner. You can mount it on a tripod for home training:

http://timers.shop/Target-Turner_c_28.html

Member -TT- wrote a terrific app called Bullseye Match, which allows you to train sustained fire - timed and rapid - as well as shot drills. You can set the app to time one-shot, two-shot or whatever drills up to a 20 secs interval.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t15973p50-bullseye-match-free-app-for-android-ios-and-windows

The app "just happens" to work great with the target turner. Smile It's actually designed that way.

For dry firing, you can train one-shot drills at home with the target turner and the app. Taking the target turner to the range makes for great live fire training. I built a small target stand from scrap wood and take the target turner with me to the range.

Best Regards,
Oleg.
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Post by Jack H Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:57 am

Cadence is a poor word for shooting a 5 shot string.  It's not shot 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.  It's the flow between the shots.  You might say rhythmic flow like a drummers snare, tom, base, and cymbal, rather than the beat of a single drum.  You have these parts and maybe more:  Setting the sight picture, pressing the trigger, managing the recoil, back to setting the sight picture,......each of these is something you do.  Not what the gun does.
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