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CMP EIC eligible 1911

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Wes Lorenz
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Post by Pilsudski 1/30/2022, 6:24 pm

After reading the CMP rule book, It doesn't explicitly state that an undercut trigger guard is acceptable so that means that a 1911 that has this feature is not an eligible EIC pistol, correct?
It does explicitly state that a modified grip safety is eligible, unfilled holes in the slide for optic mounts is eligible, square trigger guard is eligible etc.  No mention of the undercut trigger guard.

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Post by chiz1180 1/30/2022, 6:43 pm

The best way to get an answer is to specifically reach out to the CMP and ask.
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Post by Pilsudski 1/30/2022, 7:21 pm

chiz1180 wrote:The best way to get an answer is to specifically reach out to the CMP and ask.
I agree that it should be the best but it is not the most convenient.

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Post by chiz1180 1/30/2022, 8:49 pm

End of the day it is better to have an official ruling rather than opinion from someone from the internet.

From my interpretation of 4.1.2 Approved Service Pistol Modifications, any trigger guard undercut is not allowed as it is not specifically mentioned.
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Post by james r chapman 1/31/2022, 5:03 am

You may also contact Jim Henderson with CMP about it.
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Post by CR10X 1/31/2022, 5:50 am

There was a discussion on this a few years ago after the CMP "approved" list began to have pistols that were manufactured with "undercut" trigger guards.  I seem to remember the CMP provided an answer, but for I cannot find it with a quick search and didn't keep it since it didn't matter to me.  Maybe someone with better search capabilities or time can find something for you.

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Post by Pilsudski 1/31/2022, 8:07 am

james r chapman wrote:You may also contact Jim Henderson with CMP about it.
I would like to.  Do you have his number or email address?

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Post by james r chapman 1/31/2022, 8:13 am

Jim Henderson
Red Feather Outfitters
419-560-6030
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Post by chiz1180 1/31/2022, 11:09 am

james r chapman wrote:Jim Henderson
Red Feather Outfitters
419-560-6030
Probably more appropriate to reach out via the CMP rather than Red Feather. Jim wears many different hats.
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Post by james r chapman 1/31/2022, 2:57 pm

Jim is the CMP guy
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Post by chiz1180 1/31/2022, 3:42 pm

james r chapman wrote:Jim is the CMP guy
He absolutely is, however that is the number for Red Feather, not the CMP.
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Post by bihammond 1/31/2022, 3:57 pm

I've sent questions to competitions@thecmp.org and they (Jim for pistol) have responded very quickly.

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Post by Wes Lorenz 2/1/2022, 1:53 pm

Pilsudski wrote:After reading the CMP rule book, It doesn't explicitly state that an undercut trigger guard is acceptable so that means that a 1911 that has this feature is not an eligible EIC pistol, correct?
It does explicitly state that a modified grip safety is eligible, unfilled holes in the slide for optic mounts is eligible, square trigger guard is eligible etc.  No mention of the undercut trigger guard.
Yes, section 4.1 thru 4.1.5 and Table 3 are lacking and leave much to interpret. I am currently asking Jim about Legal CZ pistols due to the speed shooting crowd asking to shoot EIC matches with their USPSA legal production class pistols like the CZ75 SP01. 
If I am acting as a match director or helping run an EIC, I shouldn't have to interpret the rules. 

To answer the undercut trigger guard question:
1) The word "derived" (to me) does not infer an "original design" specification. (see links below of approved custom shop 1911's).
http://www.lesbaer.com/CMP.html      https://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=136

2) 4.1.4, Table 3 uses the word "series" after some of the pistol brands and not for others. Why not all brands, as "series" infers minor differences? 

SNIP of CMP Rules
4.1.1 Service Pistol Requirements Pistols used in CMP-Sanctioned Service Pistol National Trophy and EIC Pistol Matches must comply with this rule. The following specific rules apply to Service Pistols:
a) The pistol must be a U. S. Service Pistol or a pistol derived from U. S. or foreign service pistol design. 
b) The pistol must be listed as an approved Service Pistol in 4.1.3, 4.1.4

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Post by chiz1180 2/1/2022, 3:19 pm

Wes Lorenz wrote:
Pilsudski wrote:After reading the CMP rule book, It doesn't explicitly state that an undercut trigger guard is acceptable so that means that a 1911 that has this feature is not an eligible EIC pistol, correct?
It does explicitly state that a modified grip safety is eligible, unfilled holes in the slide for optic mounts is eligible, square trigger guard is eligible etc.  No mention of the undercut trigger guard.
Yes, section 4.1 thru 4.1.5 and Table 3 are lacking and leave much to interpret. I am currently asking Jim about Legal CZ pistols due to the speed shooting crowd asking to shoot EIC matches with their USPSA legal production class pistols like the CZ75 SP01. 
If I am acting as a match director or helping run an EIC, I shouldn't have to interpret the rules. 

As far as the CZ/USPSA guns an easy place to start, will the trigger lift 4lbs in single action? Most USPSA shooters I know run triggers far lighter than 4lbs.
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Post by Wes Lorenz 2/1/2022, 3:27 pm

I've weighed lot of 1911's before an EIC that are under weight and then the mad scramble starts, ha, ha. I bet most wad guns at local matches are under 3.5lbs too.
They told me CZ springs are available to increase trigger weight.

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Post by Pilsudski 2/1/2022, 4:45 pm

bihammond wrote:I've sent questions to competitions@thecmp.org and they (Jim for pistol) have responded very quickly.
I sent an email yesterday and am still waiting for an answer.

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Post by Jon Eulette 2/1/2022, 4:53 pm

Wes Lorenz wrote:I've weighed lot of 1911's before an EIC that are under weight and then the mad scramble starts, ha, ha. I bet most wad guns at local matches are under 3.5lbs too.
They told me CZ springs are available to increase trigger weight.
Most of the wad gun pistols I work on, the trigger pull does not meet legal NRA weight. They are legal when returned!
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Post by Fotomaniac 2/1/2022, 5:52 pm

FWIW… every pistol must be checked by one of the on-site armorers before they can be used in competition at Perry (at least). So…it WILL be legal, otherwise you’ll be a spectator!  Lol

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Post by Palma99 2/3/2022, 8:22 am

Jim Henderson, the pistol director at the CMP, replied to my original question: Can a 1911 that has an undercut trigger guard comply? His reply is that an undercut trigger guard does not disqualify a 1911 that meets the other requirements.  This is very clear to me and should be also for others.
Thanks all for your responses and suggestions. I look forward now to participating in upcoming bullseye matches.

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Post by tovaert 2/4/2022, 10:46 am

I've installed two Cajun Gun Works Pro Package trigger kits, one on a CZ SP-01 and the other on a CZ RAMI. Both were the de-cocker models which is a PITA. Having disassembled these pistols, I think trying to get a CZ up to 4# for EIC would be difficult. CZ does not use simple helical springs which can be readily swapped for ones of similar geometry but larger wire diameter. The mainspring is, and I guess its stiffness could be increased, but I would be surprised if that alone would do the job, and then there's the issues with cycling, etc., associated with a much stiffer mainspring. Disassembling a CZ pistol to make these changes for an EIC match and then bringing it back to its previous configuration would be time consuming, and I don't feel it would be very popular. IMHO Cajun is the definitive expert with CZs. They may be able to design a heavier trigger return spring, sear spring, and perhaps an even heavier lifter spring (they already have one that will increase the SA pull by 3 to 5 oz.), but that would require experimentation ($$$) and testing, all for a relatively small group of interested shooters. CZs are much better suited as 9mm CF optic guns, where a 2.5# trigger (?) is required. That's very doable. A more expensive option is the Sig P210A, and Grayguns just introduced a new adjustable take-up trigger for that model are are hinting about introducing an adjustable fire control (shorter reset) system, but that may be years away. Since these shooters are in the 9mm crowd, I think the money spent on a new or used 9mm SA Range Officer would also be a good choice. I'm rebuilding one now (for EIC) as my Winter project...will Ransom test and report back when things thaw out up here in a couple of months. My goal is a 2" gun at 50 yards (shooting slower and softer recoiling 147 gr loads) for about $500 in total upgrades.

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