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1911 nose dive failure to feed (185gr Nosler JHP)

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Sg1911
Kermit Workman
Steve in Allentown
mdlmaker
Jon Eulette
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spursnguns
weber1b
jglenn21
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ponzio
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Post by ponzio Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:09 pm

Hello all, this is my first post so I apologize if I use wrong terms and/or don't follow norms, I promise to learn. 

I’m having a problem with my Springfield Range Officer. This gun was sent to Dave Salyer for trigger work, Kart barrel and slide tightening. More specifically with 10 round magazines feeding 185g Nosler JHP. I’ve tried Wilson Combat and Chip McCormick magazines, both have the same issue where the first round nose dives FTF followed by a FTF during fire. The 10 round magazines seem to work better with 230g S&B FMJ. This gun is used for both bullseye and events like dueling tree until I can afford to build a gun for each event and be more specific and intentional with each guns use. 

Here’s what I’ve done:
Cleaned the gun
Polished feed ramp
Widened the lips of one magazine to .420 (seems to run better)
Use the slide stop instead of my hand to release the slide forward, this helps but still fails to feed on occasion.

What I’ve read but haven’t done:
Replace magazine release with a “high catch” release button
Have gunsmith check angle of feed ramp and machine as needed to right angle /extend the feed ramp down

My questions:
Has anyone had and successfully solved this issue? 
If so, what’s the correct order of operations to solve?
Is widening the feed lips bad practice? I’ve read it’s common for SWC shooters and wonder if the same principle apples for JHP. 

ponzio

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Post by TomH_pa Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:54 pm

When I had trouble with my RO feeding I tried all the magazines I owned until I found two that worked, to my surprise they were the 2 that came from Springfield with the gun...go figure.

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Post by ponzio Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:57 pm

TomH_pa wrote:When I had trouble with my RO feeding I tried all the magazines I owned until I found two that worked, to my surprise they were the 2 that came from Springfield with the gun...go figure.
thanks Tom, were they the 7 round magazines or 10?

My 7 round magazines from Springfield also feed fine with the same ammo!

ponzio

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Post by jglenn21 Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:01 pm

yep  not my favorite mags, but the ones that came with the RO I just rebarreled, work perfectly. 7rd magazines 

I prefer the round follower Metalforms 7 rd.


Last edited by jglenn21 on Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by weber1b Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:11 pm

Why do you feel it is important to get a 10 round magazine to work?

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Post by ponzio Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:14 pm

weber1b wrote:Why do you feel it is important to get a 10 round magazine to work?
I use the gun for both bullseye and some other events at my club (which I know is a bullseye gun sin!). In a few years I will likely purchase a gun I only use for bullseye and another for some of the other events, but I am not there yet. 

I have a dueling tree event next week and the max load is 9 rounds.

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Post by spursnguns Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:28 pm

Hello ponzio,

First round nosedives are notorious with extended capacity M1911 magazines and 185 grains jacketed hollow point bullets.  The feed angle of the cartridges change as you increase the magazine stack beyond seven rounds and you eventually get to the point where that angle is not optimal.  It is doubtful that your past fixes would have cured the problem and I would refrain from any other DIY feedramp or magazine adjustments.  You need a smith that specializes in IPSC/IDPA/run-and-gun type hardware.

By the way, the quick fix....when loading ten, use hardball for the top round and then your Noslers for the balance.  

Jim
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Post by spursnguns Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:41 pm

Hello ponzio,

While I think about it; if you have an eight round magazine that works and you only shoot nine rounds....

Load a single round (Nosler) from one magazine.
Drop that magazine (safety on).
Load the eight rounder.
Clean the tree.

Jim
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Post by ponzio Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:11 pm

spursnguns wrote:Hello ponzio,

While I think about it; if you have an eight round magazine that works and you only shoot nine rounds....

Load a single round (Nosler) from one magazine.
Drop that magazine (safety on).
Load the eight rounder.
Clean the tree.

Jim
Hi Jim, 

Thank you for your advice. I have considered the above, will check with my CRO and try out some 8 round magazines (only have 10 and 7 at the moment).

ponzio

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Post by shanneba Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:54 pm

What is the OACL of your reloads?

Nosler shows a 1.200" OACL for the 185 gr JHP, SAAMI max for 45 ACP is 1.275"

A Shooting Times 45 Bullseye article from 2018 also used a 1.200" length for the Nosler, Zero and Sierria 185 gr JHP.

Loads For The Bullseye Shooter

Another article on the USMC Bullseye Match load shows a 1.200" length for the Nosler 185 JHP they use.

USMC Match .45 Load

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Post by Jon Eulette Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:04 pm

In many cases the higher capacity magazines have a more powerful magazine spring. As a result the first cartridge out of the magazine hangs up at the case rim which causes the nose of the cartridge to drop/dip in which the hollow point digs into the feed ramp and causes FTF. It can be a royal pain in the ass to correct. Some magazine followers cannot be adjusted for angle into the feed ramp. So it’s pretty easy to chase your tail.
Glad it’s not me 😝
Jon
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Post by mdlmaker Wed Feb 09, 2022 7:31 pm

I have also heard of 1911’s that fed Zero 185jhp’s but not the Nosler’s. I think it was the diameter of the hollow point being slightly bigger in the Nosler.

Have you tried going a pound lighter on the recoil spring? May help it go into battery a little slower, giving it more time to align into the chamber.

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Post by TomH_pa Wed Feb 09, 2022 9:51 pm

ponzio wrote:
TomH_pa wrote:When I had trouble with my RO feeding I tried all the magazines I owned until I found two that worked, to my surprise they were the 2 that came from Springfield with the gun...go figure.
thanks Tom, were they the 7 round magazines or 10?

My 7 round magazines from Springfield also feed fine with the same ammo!
Mine were the factory 7 rounders

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Post by Steve in Allentown Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:34 am

There are so many magazines to choose from and everyone has one they prefer over all others.  I've tried every magazine out there including examples from Metalform, Wilson, McCormick, Tripp, Checkmate, ACT, Mec-Gar, Eagle, and others.  The best 8 round magazine I've found is the TMC Ultimate from Mike at Thunder Mountain.

A couple of years ago I ran a three day long test putting about 5,000 rounds of factory FMJ and JHP from multiple manufacturers as well as my own HG68 reloads through a dozen 1911s (Government, Commander, and Officer's sizes of which one had a full ramped barrel while all the others were standard barrels) being fed by all the magazines listed above and a few more.   Every kind or ammo was fed through each pistol from each magazine.  The combinations felt endless. The TMC  fed when the others wouldn't and with a rare exception or two fed smoother with every combination of pistol, ammo, and magazine.
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Post by Kermit Workman Fri Feb 11, 2022 7:45 pm

Just another shot in the dark, Are the magazine lips digging into the sides of the case leaving marks. You may be able to reduce that by stoning the inside of the mag lips where they don't scratch the case. 10 rounders are difficult to get to feed.

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Post by Sg1911 Sat Feb 12, 2022 1:33 pm

You may try changing the recoil spring. Try one a couple of lbs lighter as well as as one a couple of lbs higher.  May help, my 9 mm does the same thing,  can user a lighter weight recoil spring and it will run with hp.

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Post by Kermit Workman Sat Feb 12, 2022 2:28 pm

Another maybe. A long, long time ago I had Jack Best build a gun for me. In the magazine he put an "L" shaped plate between the magazine spring and the magazine follower. I assume it was to apply more pressure on the front of the follower to prevent the bullet from nose diving. Also you could bent the coil of the magazine spring that contacts the follower up to apply more pressure on the front of the follower.

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Post by Ray_Grigsby Sun Feb 13, 2022 1:52 am

Almost every feeding issue I have had recently was immediately solved with extra power Wolff magazine springs.  Most of them were just what you refer to as a nosedive.  Try it as it is inexpensive.

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Post by Chady734 Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:12 am

Get a 10round magazine, that should work !

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Post by sayracin Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:23 pm

Steve in Allentown wrote:There are so many magazines to choose from and everyone has one they prefer over all others.  I've tried every magazine out there including examples from Metalform, Wilson, McCormick, Tripp, Checkmate, ACT, Mec-Gar, Eagle, and others.  The best 8 round magazine I've found is the TMC Ultimate from Mike at Thunder Mountain.

A couple of years ago I ran a three day long test putting about 5,000 rounds of factory FMJ and JHP from multiple manufacturers as well as my own HG68 reloads through a dozen 1911s (Government, Commander, and Officer's sizes of which one had a full ramped barrel while all the others were standard barrels) being fed by all the magazines listed above and a few more.   Every kind or ammo was fed through each pistol from each magazine.  The combinations felt endless. The TMC  fed when the others wouldn't and with a rare exception or two fed smoother with every combination of pistol, ammo, and magazine.
Steve, did the fully supported barrel have any or as many issues as the standard barrels did? 

Thanks
sayracin
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Post by S148 Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:50 am

spursnguns wrote:Hello ponzio,

First round nosedives are notorious with extended capacity M1911 magazines and 185 grains jacketed hollow point bullets.  The feed angle of the cartridges change as you increase the magazine stack beyond seven rounds and you eventually get to the point where that angle is not optimal. 

Jim

Feed angle is different for virtually every round, and the more rounds that are in the magazine the greater the nosedive. Here's an article that describes it;

https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/nosedive-and-feed-angle-in-the-1911-45-acp/

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Post by Steve in Allentown Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:04 am

sayracin wrote:
Steve in Allentown wrote:There are so many magazines to choose from and everyone has one they prefer over all others.  I've tried every magazine out there including examples from Metalform, Wilson, McCormick, Tripp, Checkmate, ACT, Mec-Gar, Eagle, and others.  The best 8 round magazine I've found is the TMC Ultimate from Mike at Thunder Mountain.

A couple of years ago I ran a three day long test putting about 5,000 rounds of factory FMJ and JHP from multiple manufacturers as well as my own HG68 reloads through a dozen 1911s (Government, Commander, and Officer's sizes of which one had a full ramped barrel while all the others were standard barrels) being fed by all the magazines listed above and a few more.   Every kind or ammo was fed through each pistol from each magazine.  The combinations felt endless. The TMC  fed when the others wouldn't and with a rare exception or two fed smoother with every combination of pistol, ammo, and magazine.
Steve, did the fully supported barrel have any or as many issues as the standard barrels did? 

Thanks
Yes, the full ramped barrel was very picky about which ammo/mag combinations it liked.  Even with the right combinations feeding was not nearly as smooth as with the standard barrel 1911s.  So, I'm not a fan of full ramped .45 1911s.
Steve in Allentown
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Post by sayracin Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:51 am

Thank you for the info
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