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High standard mag tuning woes

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Post by Merick Fri Apr 01, 2022 11:51 pm

After a disaster of a match I broke down and ordered a propper feed lip adjustment tool, waited patiently for tolerable weather, and went to the range with calipers, notepad, two boxes of cci standard, and a sandwich. Here is what I observed;

Way too low: impact marks on top and bottom of bullet nose, and scrape on underside of bullet.

Too Low: scrape on underside if bullet (where I started, this will occasionally raise enough of a lead burr to keep the slide out of battery and wreck timed/rapid strings)

Goldilocks zone: bullet chambers without dammage  (hypothetical, not observed)

Too high: impact mark on top of bullet nose and scrape on underside

Way too high: bullet jams on top of chamber mouth

So now that I'm thoroughly and systematically frustrated, I am open to input from the crowd.

Merick

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Post by CR10X Sat Apr 02, 2022 7:17 am

It may not be the magazine lips as much as the "bump" inside the magazine well that is there to stabilize the magazine when it is fully inserted.  With the slide and barrel off, insert and lock in each magazine.  Then see if you can wiggle it front to rear.  If it moves; then you have an issue with magazine / frame fit. There are some solutions to that.   So, check that out before working on the lips too much.

CR10X

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Post by mikemyers Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:14 am

I think you may find this page as useful as I did.

Start by verifying if you have an authentic magazine, or a copy, which apparently should be ignored.

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=936897&page=2&=1
mikemyers
mikemyers

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Post by mikemyers Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:22 am

(I had lots of problems with my High Power X-Series, with a lot of help from the folks at Rimfire Central.  Those posts are still there.  The real problem turned out to be a defective firing pin spring.  Once that was corrected, my magazines worked again.)

All of this is from before I stopped using all my 22guns, and only used my Nelson.  

(I had been making the same incorrect assumption as to the problem as what CR10X referred to - everyone, me included, blamed the magazines, but my problem was elsewhere.  You can read all this in the Rimfire Central forums - I learned a lot, none of which helped me.  I discovered the real problem by accident, after which Alan took care of the new parts, and all my "real" magazines work properly again.)
mikemyers
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Post by Merick Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:05 pm

CR10X wrote:"bump" inside the magazine well

Can you describe this? What am I looking for?

Merick

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Post by CR10X Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:50 am

Ok,  This is easier to demonstrate than tell. 

The magazine well is not exactly "even" or straight all the way.  There is usually a little rise or "bump" in the well that the magazine will be pressed against when it is fully seated in the magazine well and the magazine catch is fully engaged on the magazine.  Take a close look and should see a burnished spot or small area in the mag well. (Or sometimes not as much depending on the fitting and generation of various high standard models.) Even if you can't see anything, check out the following: 

The pressure from the magazine catch and the "bump" serve to stabilize the magazine from movement when the magazine is fully inserted and the magazine catch is engaged.  Some frames don't have as much "bump" as they should magazines are also variable in width (from front to back which also contributes to the issue).  Therefore magazine fitting starts with seeing how much movement there is fore and aft when the magazine is seated. 

Just take the slide and barrel off, insert a magazine fully and as you insert it, you will feel that is a little loose (especially if you hold the magazine catch back).  As it goes in and magazine catch engages, you should feel some tension or slight resistance upon seating the magazine.  You usually can't feel that as well if you let the magazine catch ride against the magazine as its inserted.

Then try to wiggle the magazine fore and aft. If it moves more than just just a little, that can be an issue.  Try various magazines and I'll bet your best magazines move the least.

CR

CR10X

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Post by bruce martindale Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:59 am

Interesting, I'm no expert of the HS but all of mine work ok ( Hamdens, not Hartfords)

The number of shells in the the mag would change the stripping force and the amout of tipping?

Wouldn't a dot of epoxy on either the front top or rear of the magazine correct the tipping ?

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Post by CR10X Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:48 pm

Epoxy doesn't really work for long, but can be used to see if it helps the issue.  I've seen magazines, even Hamden slant grip magazines, with a shim soldered on it to address this issue.  And that magazine would generally not fit any other gun.  

No, it really does not matter how many rounds are in the mag, if it moves then it can be a real issue.  Either it moves or it stays relatively (almost imperceptible) still.

Since High Standard magazines feed the rounds into the chamber without any control except the feed lips, any movement of the magazine changes the impact point of cartridge as it releases.  Too much movement and its like wobbling too much on the target.  As had been said in the past, High Standard magazine don't really feed the bullets into the chamber but its more like the slide throws them at it.  Position and timing is everything since High Standard feeding is like throwing the thread at the eye of a needle.  When they work, they work great. When wear sets in or we find tolerance stacking, then we need to take time and be methodical when searching for solutions (as with most gun issues). 

However, the main point I would like to make is that we should always seek out and confirm exactly what is causing a problem or issue before attempting solutions.  Otherwise, we are simply adding variables by changing things that may not need changing, rather than reducing variables to identify potential causes.  

In other words, if we don't know exactly why something's happening, its not a good idea to start changings things in hopes of a solution. Be sure to isolate ALL the variables first, then start changing the system, one thing at a time. 

My general guidelines are: 

Identity and list most recent changes or changes in conditions (ammo, springs, last cleaning, sight / scope screws, new magazines, dropped parts, etc.)  
Cleaning / inspection and check any overtravel screws
Ammo
Springs
Mechanical operation
Magazines 
Extractors / Ejectors
Chamber edges
Etc.

Before ever making any changes to any part.

CR

CR10X

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Post by Merick Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:06 pm

Ya so I still don't have any idea where the "bump" is. Top of the mag well? Bottom? Front? Rear?

Magazine "moves just a little" as in 0.003", 0.030", or 0.300"?


Merick

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Post by CR10X Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:21 pm

Go here:

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t7686-high-standard-magazine-adjustment-advice

and here:

https://histandard.info/Jim_Barta/

And the Jim_Barta page gives some good advise if you do need to adjust the magazines. 

Sometimes you can't see or even feel the "bump" because it isn't even there (anymore or ever) depending manufacturing / previous "gunsmithing"  The shim locations will give a general locations to look for. Top front / bottom rear, but varies depending on if the gun is rear heel or front magazine catch locations.  Jim Barta used these two locations to install screws to achieve a more solid magazine fit on later front magazine catch guns.    

Again, the important part of this conversation is "does it move?"

CR

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