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Cross-fire talk

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Post by RoyDean 4/4/2022, 9:57 am

I just read the thread about Ammo from Soupy44 and CR10X chimed in with his amusing/annoying experience.

It happens that just recently I was shooting a CF AGG and as I was scoping my first SF target after two poor 32 shots I noticed a 45 hole in the X ring, then as I scoped another 45 hole appeared in the 10 ring. I stepped back and quietly went to the Match Director. The shots were so good that I suspected they might have come from the shooter to my left, MD went to check, no. By then the very experienced shooter to my right had put 5 very good shots on to my target. Whoops!

The MD told me to wait till everyone completed the first target. Then we all went forward. My marker recorded my first 2 shots. Stapled a new full face and then I was told to shoot my remaining 8 shots alone, in 8 minutes, before we proceeded to the next target. The errant shooter lost those first 5 shots of course.

I was happy with the arrangement, but I now wonder whether we actually followed the correct procedure?

Should I have been able to shoot 10 shots in 10 minutes on a fresh target? Or was it correct to record the original 2 shots and then shoot 8 further shots in 8 minutes on a fresh target?

Inquiring minds need to know Laughing Laughing

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Post by weber1b 4/4/2022, 11:25 am

I think it should have been a fresh target of 10 shots.

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Post by Dcforman 4/4/2022, 11:43 am

So, by my reading of the rules....

Because the crossfire was a 45 caliber, and you were shooting a 32, the 45 holes could be easily identified and "nullified", allowing your 32 holes to be scored. Because you only fired 2 shots, and the 45 holes are nullified, technically, your score would be the sum of the two shots, and your "missing" shots would be scored zero. You would not have the option of shooting another target, because there were not 11 or more hits remaining on your target (once the 45 holes are nullified).

So, I would say you should have finished the string of ten shots on your original target, despite the crossfires. The real question is what would happen if one of your shots went through a 45 hole and didn't leave a mark. This isn't addressed in the rules, as "non-visible hits in close groups" (3.10.9.c) only applies to groups of 3 shots or more.

Weird situation. From now on, though, I would finish out the string.

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Post by james r chapman 4/4/2022, 1:07 pm

Good question though, doesn’t appear to be described in the rules. Maybe in a casebook somewhere.
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Post by RoyDean 4/4/2022, 1:37 pm

Interesting range of responses so far - no doubt JB is munching popcorn!

The other issue that comes to mind is whether or not it is appropriate to interrupt an adjacent shooter and point out to them that they are indeed cross-firing?

In the actual situation I described - even though it was a fairly high profile event and the MD, who was also calling the match, was (without naming names) quite a senior figure in our sport - we were only about 17 shooters and my spot was right in front of the MD's position. It would be more difficult to handle at a really big event.

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Post by Wobbley 4/4/2022, 1:50 pm

If there are 45 holes in a target and you’re shooting a 32, then it’s possible that your 32s could go through a cross fired bullet.  I’d say that the RO did it right, in that the competitor took credit for his prior shots and he get ton”continue to fire” before the next match.
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Post by NukeMMC 4/4/2022, 2:03 pm

From what I can see in the rules, he should have fired all shots and been given the option of a refire if there were still excessive shots after 45 holes pasted:

14.10 Excessive Hits - If more than the required number of hits appear on the target, any shot which can be identified by the appearance of the bullet hole as having been fired by some competitor, other than the competitor assigned to that target, or as having been fired in a previous string, will be pasted and will not be scored. If more than the required numbers of hits then remain on the target a complete new score will be fired and the original score will be disregarded, except: 

(a)  If all hits are of equal value, the score will be recorded as the required number of hits of that value. 
(b)  The competitor shall be allowed to accept a score equal to the required number of hits of lowest value. 
(c)  If a competitor fires fewer than the prescribed number of shots through the competitors own fault, and there should be more hits on the target than the shots fired, the competitor will be scored the number of shots of highest value equal to the number fired, and will be given a miss for each unfired cartridge. 
(d)  If a competitor, by mistake, fires more than the required number of shots, the required number of hits of lowest value will be scored. This shall not be considered a refire as outlined in Rule 9.14. 
(e)  If the competitor refires, the original target with excessive hits shall be retained by the designated range official and on refiring, the competitor may not receive a score higher than the required number of hits of highest value on the original target. If the score on the refired target is higher than the required number of hits of highest value on the original target, then the original target shall be scored using the appropriate hits of highest value; but if the score on the refired target is not higher, then such refired score will be recorded.

Personally, I think what was done is a better, more fair solution.
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Post by Wobbley 4/4/2022, 2:08 pm

And a 45 can obliterate a 32 hole.  So it is possible that a competitor may be substantially hurt by that rule.
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Post by Jon Eulette 4/4/2022, 2:16 pm

NukeMMC wrote:From what I can see in the rules, he should have fired all shots and been given the option of a refire if there were still excessive shots after 45 holes pasted:

14.10 Excessive Hits - If more than the required number of hits appear on the target, any shot which can be identified by the appearance of the bullet hole as having been fired by some competitor, other than the competitor assigned to that target, or as having been fired in a previous string, will be pasted and will not be scored. If more than the required numbers of hits then remain on the target a complete new score will be fired and the original score will be disregarded, except: 

(a)  If all hits are of equal value, the score will be recorded as the required number of hits of that value. 
(b)  The competitor shall be allowed to accept a score equal to the required number of hits of lowest value. 
(c)  If a competitor fires fewer than the prescribed number of shots through the competitors own fault, and there should be more hits on the target than the shots fired, the competitor will be scored the number of shots of highest value equal to the number fired, and will be given a miss for each unfired cartridge. 
(d)  If a competitor, by mistake, fires more than the required number of shots, the required number of hits of lowest value will be scored. This shall not be considered a refire as outlined in Rule 9.14. 
(e)  If the competitor refires, the original target with excessive hits shall be retained by the designated range official and on refiring, the competitor may not receive a score higher than the required number of hits of highest value on the original target. If the score on the refired target is higher than the required number of hits of highest value on the original target, then the original target shall be scored using the appropriate hits of highest value; but if the score on the refired target is not higher, then such refired score will be recorded.

Personally, I think what was done is a better, more fair solution.

I believe competitor should have been required to shoot all his shots on the target and choose to refire if necessary. I have been in this position more times than I care to have happened. Rules aren’t always fair, but it’s the rules. Have I been screwed? Yep. It sucks, but it’s the same for everyone on the line. I lost a military championship from crossfires on my target. Got to the point that I lost my mind. Shot all three SF targets over again. It was on a day I would have shot a personal best hardball aggregate 900. Very painful day that still haunts me.
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Post by sharkdoctor 4/4/2022, 4:07 pm

The rules are pretty explicit and implicit for shots to be fired.  A competitor goes to the line, and fires the requisite number of shots per the load command.  That may not happen due to malfunctions of equipment, targets and for safety reasons, and the rules note what to do in those instances.  A key phrase to me is "through no fault of the competitor"  e.g., my gun broke; my target fell off; an eagle perched on my target frame, I had a dud round, and so on. If the competitor is at fault for too many or to few shots appearing, then the "excessive hits" section notes what to do, as does the refire section.

The rules do specifically state that one should not disturb other competitors (9.9).  I would be upset if my concentration was disturbed by another competitor and as a Match Director, I would not disturb competitors by trying to determine who cross-fired during a timed string.

So the OP should have fired the requisite shots, and sorted it out during scoring.  Is it fair?  Maybe yes, maybe no, but those are the rules in my interpretation.

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Post by john bickar 4/4/2022, 5:11 pm

I've seen this happen before as well. In short, I think you and the Match Director did the right thing regarding the spirit and intent of the rule.

In the case of an aberrant range condition, stop, notify the match official, and consult the rule book. It can always get sorted out later.

The rule, as written, assumes that both shooters walk down and score after each firing 10 shots. It does not account for a shooter discovering a crossfire prior to completing his/her string of 10 shots.

In which case, the match officials/referee/jury decide what the shooter who has been crossfired upon should do. They may decide on a very literal interpretation of 14.10, and have you finish out your string on the same target. In theory, you would be able to discern your .32 holes from the .45 holes after firing 10 rounds.

However, several people have brought up the possibility of a .32 bullet going through a .45 hole. That then puts the crossfired-upon competitor at a disadvantage, because now you have insufficient shots.

The spirit of the rule is to give no advantage nor disadvantage to the shooter who was crossfired upon. Thus, I would make the same call that the MD did.

If I were the crossfired-upon competitor, and the referee instructed me to finish my string of 10, I think there's a case to be made for firing the series under protest claiming a range alibi. It's no different than if your staples come loose and your center blows off in the middle of a string. Too many shots is too many shots.

It gets even more complicated in a .22 or .45 match, when you cannot distinguish the shot holes of the two competitors. In that case, I would still follow the same procedure (shoot your 8 remaining shots separately), but you'd have the option of the low 2 (out of 7) or refire those two shots. But I think there's a stronger argument to be made there for you to finish out your string of 10.
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Post by john bickar 4/4/2022, 5:14 pm

james r chapman wrote:Good question though, doesn’t appear to be described in the rules. Maybe in a casebook somewhere.

Yeah, this is the difference between "statute law" and "case law". I think the ISSF has an officials' handbook that is much longer than the (already lengthy) ISSF rules. ISSF is much more pedantic about edge cases like this.
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