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CMP ruels for Series 80 disabled firing pin block.

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CMP ruels for Series 80 disabled firing pin block. Empty CMP ruels for Series 80 disabled firing pin block.

Post by LongSlide Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:58 am

Does anyone know how the maximum allowed "hammer fall" of 0.090" (section 6.6.1) is measured for a disabled series 80 firing pin block?


CMP Competition Rules, 16th edition--2012, section 6.6.1 wrote:All pistol hammers must have a functioning captive half-cock notch that
prevents the hammer from falling when the trigger is pulled in the half-cock
position or be a series 80-type pistol with a series 80 hammer and fully
functional firing pin block or have a series 80-type hammer with a half-cock
shelf that does not allow the hammer to fall more than .090
”.
Is it from the highest point of the hammer when the hammer is at half-cock  to the firing pin stop?  Is it the straight line distance between the firing pin base and the corresponding contact point of the hammer?  Is it measured by the linear displacement of the hammer strut between hammer half-cock and uncocked? 

Obviously, the hammer rotates through an arc and different methods of measurement will produce different numbers.

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Post by DavidR Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:59 am

you can not compete with a disabled safety feature in a CMP match, its in the rules. I struggled with this till i re read the rules several times and asked questions, much like you are doing. What was pointed out to me was it is saying if you have a series 80 gun, it must have the funtioning series 80 safeties, if you just have a series 80 hammer in another gun (70 series style) then it must have a half catch notch and it cant drop more than .090. 80 series hammers have no half catch, they have a flat shelf that must be have a notch cut into them, the measurement is about how deep that notch is. You dont want to win leg points only to be DQed after if they check your gun, or to not be allowed to fire the match if they catch it during testing.

From Rule book;

"All pistol hammers must have a functi
oning captive half
-cock notch that
prevents the hammer from falling when the trigger is pulled in the half-
cock position or be a series 80-type pistol with a series 80 hammer and
fully functional firing pin block or have a series 80-type hammer with a
half-cock shelf that does not allow the hammer to fall more than .090”."
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Post by LongSlide Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:01 pm

Thank you David.  I understand your analysis.  I see that the CMP Rule Book has contact information for rule clarifications and interpretations; I might forward this question to them just to see what they say.

I will, however, say that the text from the rule book, section 6.6.1 needs to be clarified.

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Post by DavidR Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:45 pm

The CMP has already been asked and they answered, here is a link to the FAQ site. It addresses the question on safeties and the series 80 and other questions.
http://home.roadrunner.com/~albany13/rulesfaq.pdf
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Post by LongSlide Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:08 pm

I realize this is being pedantic, but the question in the FAQ was about series 80 hammers with the half-cock shelf.  I'm wondering aloud if I replaced the series 80 hammer with a "series 70" which has a captive half-cock notch, would removing the firing pin block still be improper?

There were a number (6500) of Colt Commercial 1911's with the Swartz safety that the US took into service in 1942 and removed the firing pin block in the slide as well as the lifting arm in the frame.  And a disabled series 80 fp block using a series 70 hammer would leave the gun with the same number of safeties as a series 70 and matches to at least one variant of 1911 in US service.

At this point, this is more of a curiosity question now and not so practical for me.  I doubt any advantage in trigger pull gained by disabling the block would warrant the cost of a new hammer, at least a decent hammer.


Last edited by LongSlide on Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:28 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : additions for clarity)

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Post by DavidR Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:53 pm

You missed it again, We are talking the CMP, not the government here, they are intensely strict about their rules, here is what keeps you from shooting a series 80 gun with the firing pin safety disabled. CMP Rule 6.3.2 (4) states: “All safety features must remain in place and operate properly.  If you were using one of the 1911s you mentioned and it came with other safeties, they would be required to be in place and working for you to shoot one in a CMP match.
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Post by LongSlide Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:51 pm

Right, I hear you.  None of my evil Twisted Evil machinations will work. Smile

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Post by Rob Kovach Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:37 pm

How different is a series 80 frame and slide from a series 70?  If you put all series 70 parts in a series 80, wouldn't it just BE a series 70 then?
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Post by LongSlide Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:55 pm

That was my thought too.  To change a series 80 to a 70, you need to :

(1) remove two small levers and replace with a frame slot filler.
(2) replace the hammer with a captive half-cock hammer
(3) remove the firing pin plunger and spring.

After this, it's a series 70 in function.  But there will be a plunger hole in the underside of the slide, adjacent to the disconnector rail, and a slot in the top of the frame, filled with the filler plate which is only visible when the slide is removed.

Oh well, it is what it is, nothing I can do about it.  How much weight does that little tiny spring and linkage actually add anyways?

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Post by Rob Kovach Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:58 pm

If you rebuild a gun in that way, wouldn't it just be a custom series 70 gun built on a series 80 frame?
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Post by LongSlide Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:04 am

Yeah, that was my other thought.  Apparently the hole and filled slot bear evidence to my skullduggery and would not pass CMP review.

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Post by DavidR Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:00 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:If you rebuild a gun in that way, wouldn't it just be a custom series 70 gun built on a series 80 frame?
No its not just the frame, the slide is different too so it would be a 80 series gun with the firing pin safeties removed, and as the cmp rule states, if a gun came with a safty feature it must remain intact and be functional. A series 80 slide has distinct features a 70 doesn't, takes all of 2 seconds for a armorer to rack the slide and see its been altered  and DQ it. This is really a bunch of talk about noting, i have built several series 80 wad and ball guns and they had great triggers which is the only reason to delete all the 80 stuff anyway, to try and get a better feeling trigger.
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Post by Richard Ashmore Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:09 am

LongSlide wrote:Does anyone know how the maximum allowed "hammer fall" of 0.090" (section 6.6.1) is measured for a disabled series 80 firing pin block?


CMP Competition Rules, 16th edition--2012, section 6.6.1 wrote:All pistol hammers must have a functioning captive half-cock notch that
prevents the hammer from falling when the trigger is pulled in the half-cock
position or be a series 80-type pistol with a series 80 hammer and fully
functional firing pin block or have a series 80-type hammer with a half-cock
shelf that does not allow the hammer to fall more than .090
”.
Is it from the highest point of the hammer when the hammer is at half-cock  to the firing pin stop?  Is it the straight line distance between the firing pin base and the corresponding contact point of the hammer?  Is it measured by the linear displacement of the hammer strut between hammer half-cock and uncocked? 

Obviously, the hammer rotates through an arc and different methods of measurement will produce different numbers.
I have a Springfield Armory 1911A1 that came with a Series 80 hammer.  At Camp Perry the CMP Armorers have a gauge that they use to measure how far off the firing pin stop the hammer is when on the shelf.  It's basically a 0.090 feeler gaauge.


Last edited by Richard Ashmore on Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:31 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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Post by Larry Lang Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:23 pm

Material can be removed from the face of the sear that contacts the trigger bow. This will allow the action of disarming the FP safety before the sear begins to move on the hammer hooks. The safety is still in effect and can  be felt, but not in the middle of the trigger press.

In sustained fire your trigger will reset and the safety will not engage, so long as you don't remove your finger completely from the trigger.

This information was provided to me by a well known BE pistol smith.
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