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Figuring out a problem

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Post by Wobbley 5/4/2024, 7:26 pm

My sustained fire with the 45 has been problematic, low scores with misses, lack of group, wild shots… etc.

So I loaded some 230 cast bullets with 3.8 grains Titegroup to minimize recoil but stout enough to give a decent training experience. My first 50 shots was fired from a one-handed rest where my forearm but not the hand was rested. This was to isolate the trigger manipulation from other dispersal errors (bucking, flinching, etc). So this was the target from that. The shots were fired at a timed fire pace. The 8 at 2:00 o’clock was called. I didn’t touch the zero. Just shot. So if there WAS any tendency to jerk the trigger, I don’t see any evidence in this target. Now to proceed with sustained fire training. I plan on running 2 and 3 shot drills until i stop bucking and/or flinching. I’m not sure exactly what is causing my issues, but I think it’s just poor recoil control.

Figuring out a problem Img_0416
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Post by bruce martindale 5/4/2024, 7:54 pm

My guess?  Need a continuous trigger pull with a surprise break. If I know exactly when the gun will fire, or if Im too fast/rough, I’ll flinch…even with an airgun. Trigger will buy more points than sights.

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Post by Wobbley 5/4/2024, 8:36 pm

Thanks Bruce. My next journey will be to develop a decent continuous trigger pull. My guess ( correct me if I’m off-base) is that to recover the dot (visible in the tube) then start the trigger pressure so that the trigger aids in re-centering the dot to the target and continuing to pull as the gun gets settled. I’d settle for a mid-90s in T and 90(ish) for R.
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Post by chiz1180 5/4/2024, 8:38 pm

Probably trigger control and shot anticipation. A
good target is a combination of trigger control, sight alignment, and hold. Each consecutive part building from the one before it.

Personally what I would do is 5 shot strings with the load that you intend to complete with at a rapid fire pace as you would when shooting a match. 2-3 shot drills are detrimental as you are ignoring 40-60%of the required string required. As far as utilizing a rapid fire pace, if you can shoot rapid, timed is easy with the added benefit of only having to dedicate time to one timing method.
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Post by messenger 5/5/2024, 7:47 am

A friend and I would practice together. We would load each others mags with snap caps here and there. That will point out any recoil anticipation. I would try to get it in my head the next shot was a snap cap and it would be a 10. Also dry fire a lot.

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Post by bruce martindale 5/5/2024, 8:23 am

For sustained, try one shot drills starting the pull when you see target motion, centering improves during the pull. The shot fires no sooner than 1 second after the turn. Then do 2 shot drills to emphasize recovery without wasting a lot f ammo. You can remember what the sights did when there’s only 1-2 shots. This is Walking

Pointing can be improved as you get comfortable with pulling the trigger pull not distracting you. Keep it centered during the pull time. At some point, pardon the pun, you can integrate pulling with dot or sights moving towards center and slowing wobble. Speed can also increase but be careful

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Post by chiz1180 5/5/2024, 9:24 am

Every shooter that I have watch that preaches 2-3 shot drills struggles with shots 3-5 in rapid fire, and subsequently their rapid scores are significantly lower than timed.

Using the running analogy Dryfire is walking, single string is walking, a single target is running, a match is a marathon. 

Sustained fire is always a 5 shot string, train with 5 shots so that you can understand what can be done in that 10 second rapid fire time window. I can abort a shot in rapid fire, recover and still get an acceptable result. This is because I train using the same methods I will utilize in a match. I would argue it is a waste of ammo to not train the methods that are to be used in a match.

A quick word on dryfire. When dryfiring, you need to pull the trigger just as you would if performing live fire. Most people just snap the trigger and call it dryfiring. To correctly dryfire you need to pull the trigger just as you would in live fire, this includes understanding when to abort a shot.
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Post by tovaert 5/5/2024, 10:57 am

I've debated going to my Nelson conversion on .45 lower just for this. Just keep running 5-shot drills moving the trigger. I realize recoil is not the same but it's mainly to detect trigger error. Saves a little money too. Thoughts?

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Post by Wobbley 5/5/2024, 12:10 pm

Thanks guys, keep the ideas coming. I have about 2500 230 cast bullets and at 3.8 grains of powder that isn’t as much cost as the primers 😖. That load only gives about 730 fps so the recoil isn’t too high, I think. My usual match load is 4.3 Bullseye with a 185 cast SWC that gives 790 fps.

After the 50 shots I fired 25 at a timed fire pace in a standard shooting position and these were the results. At least the shots were in a “group” even if “loosey-goosey”. Figuring out a problem Img_0417

So I’ll keep at it.
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Post by Jwhelan939 5/5/2024, 12:30 pm

As an expert I normally try to stay away from giving advice in the fundamentals section. So take this with a grain of salt. 

Looks like 16 great shots in the black. Good job! Focus on what you did during those shots. Was the secondary group, that’s low left, on call? Did you see the dot dip? Wrist break? Did you follow your process better on the black shots than the low left? Concentration break? I have my best ahah moments when I try and focus on what I did right on a shot, rather than what I did wrong.

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Post by JRV 5/5/2024, 3:34 pm

tovaert wrote:I've debated going to my Nelson conversion on .45 lower just for this. Just keep running 5-shot drills moving the trigger. I realize recoil is not the same but it's mainly to detect trigger error. Saves a little money too. Thoughts?

I use my .45 lower because trigger errors are so punishing with a .22. And I’m most likely to induce them when I loosen up my grip (a consequence of lazily getting into a rhythm with .22 recoil).

A less than perfect pull with a 4lb 2oz trigger in a loose grip is a shot in the 8 ring every time. Yoinked one into the 7 on a B8 this morning that was otherwise all 10s. Nothing reinforces doing it the right way like being punished.

Firm grip, and a less than perfect pull is an outer 10 or a tight 9.

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Post by chiz1180 5/5/2024, 7:22 pm

Wobbly,

Adjust the sights such that the group is centered. Sights are adjustable for a reason. If you need to turn the screws on a particular day to center the group, do it! It is also good to know how any particular adjustment effects the placement on paper.
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Post by Skid 5/5/2024, 7:48 pm

Wobbly,
continue that technique but come up 1 or 2 clicks.

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Post by Jwhelan939 5/5/2024, 9:16 pm

Just be careful. A high master told me that some times changing your sights is a bandaid for an issue. If your shots are on call, and you know the dot was low left when the gun went bang, then adjusting your sights isn’t fixing the problem.

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Post by Wobbley 5/5/2024, 9:42 pm

When I shot the 50-shot target I saw the group build at the lower part of the black. This gun has my current zero for my normal match load. I COULD add 2 clicks but if I can put 30 shots nothing lower than the mid-8 ring and nothing otherwise out of the black I’d call it a good effort.
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Post by chiz1180 5/5/2024, 9:49 pm

Wobbley wrote:When I shot the 50-shot target I saw the group build at the lower part of the black.  This gun has my current zero for my normal match load.  I COULD add 2 clicks but if I can put 30 shots nothing lower than the mid-8 ring and nothing otherwise out of the black I’d call it a good effort.  
You need to normalize the group being perfectly centered. Accepting anything less is a disadvantage to yourself. To that initial group you could probably add 4-6 clicks and the numerical score would be just about the same. Do everything you can to center your group, that includes technique and sight adjustment.
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