Time for a new reloading press, moving from a single stage to either a turret or progressive. Appreciate your thoughts

Here is a good video of the Frankford Arsenal X10:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wqwPM-3Jag

Here is a video (long) for changing calibers on a Dillon 750: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D_uzvGrbqo

LNL AP, changing calibers requires adjusting the height of the powder measure to get proper activation. I got around that by making drop tubes that compensate for case length.

'Base dimension' was off the Hornady drop tube I'd been using for 45.

Also made a 'micrometer' sleeve for the PE expanding die.

I've mentioned before, I don't run full progressive. Size/decap, and expand. Clean, hand prime. Swap in the drop tube I need, set the measure. Press runs nice and smooth without the expander dragging in the case.

I grew up on a shooting range and gun shop back when you could still sell reloads without a manufacturers license.  Needless to say I have more reloading machines and equipment than I need.  I have reloaded into the millions of rounds.  I have 3 Star machines and dies for them from .380 to .45 LC.  I just did not care to reload auto cartridges on them because I could not load as fast due to kicking the round out of the shell plate instead of them dropping like a .38 Special.  We did acquire a Dillon 1050 for 9MM and 38 Super and that was a game changer for those rounds back when there was a ton of military 9mm's that needed primer pocket swaged.  Then we got a Dillion 650 for rifle and .45 ACP.  Best machine was the Camdex,  fully automated and could load 3600 rounds an hour.  

Star Machines are a machined masterpiece.  Yes, I can convert calibers on the Dillon 650 quickly but with 3 Star machines, I moved for caliber by moving one seat over or grabbing a spare head and shell plate quickly.  With a Hulme feeder, you can load about a 1000 rounds an hour along with enough primer tubes.  I happen to have an auto filler for small and large primer that can take 500+ primers at a time.  

All I can suggest is go slow when moving to a progressive.  Know the feeling in the stroke of the machine when something is going wrong, ie. primer issue or you have a .357 mixed in with the .38 Special brass.

You mention three pistol calibers. Much good advice has already been offered here, so you can safely ignore me if you wish :-) 

I have a Square Deal B and I love it. However, changing between large and small calibers is ... well, I've never done it, and I don't intend to. Do note, also, that the Square Deal, unlike most of the suggestions here, does not use industry standard 7/8x14 dies. 

I'm given to understand that the changeover between both primer sizes and calibers using the Dillon 550 is quite straightforward. You can also use it as a single-stage press if that's what you need, since advancing to the next stage is manual. The additional time required to advance the shell carrier clearly isn't going to be much. If you should decide to add rifle calibers to your repertoire, the 550 will do those, too. Were I going back to choose my "first press" over again, I'd go with a 550. It may be my next press. 

Now - if you wanted to buy a press dedicated to a pistol caliber (or three of them) - go with the Square Deal. It's an awesome piece of kit. And really - a turret press costs a little extra time, but it's still significantly more convenient than swapping dies between each stage. You're on a continuum where you can trade cash for convenience at a very fine granularity. Enjoy the selection process!

Progressive. Hornady or Dillon.

If I were gonna load nothing but 45, I'd buy a Star and have it rebuilt and Gold plated.

But we have to be realistic... I'm at best an electroless nickel kind of guy ... maybe hard chrome on a good month ...

Used to see a guy regularly at shows in San Jose with several Stars and various bits on his table. I think I kinda knew what they were, but .... let's just say I wasn't into pistol at that stage of my life...

'Yeah, that's the ticket'.

So, I guess that I'm kinda going to go against the grain here (as usual, many will chant!).

Even though I spent quite a lot of time (mine and others - and not a small amount of money) buying 45 and a 32ACP/38 Spl, Star Universals. I simply did not have the patience or the mind-set for Stars. They drove me nuts whenever I got a (caused by me) malfunction and I had to strip all of the brass off the plate and start over again from scratch. Sold them both on and covered most of my cost!

I moved on to Dillon XL650's. I currently own three together with a lot of tool heads, etc. Bought all except one used off eBay. Not trouble free. Distorted main platform being the worst problem, Dillon helped and eventually sent me a new platform, but that event is probably what drove me to having duplicate presses. When I lived briefly in Phoenix I had Dillon in Sottsdale overhaul two of them. When I picked up the last one I just said thanks, paid the modest fee for some parts, but I am certain that they actually gave me a brand new machine! Now that is customer service!

Essential disclosures! My process has evolved and I deprime/size on a Lee APP. Great little machine! Then wet clean brass. Hand prime whilst watching TV.

Many will say "why bother with a full progressive press?". Fair comment, but that is just the way my process has evolved.

I have spent a lot of money on PhotoEscape PTU's, various powder measure slides, Pyrex PM hoppers, DAA turbo case feeder plates, Inline Fab plates and risers, etc, etc!

One of the constraints with 650/750 is that if you want both a powder checker and a bullet dropper the press is short of one station! Since I don't usually use station 1, that constraint is really annoying.

Having bored you with all of this, I must say that if I was starting again today I would look seriously at the Frankford X10. I love all of the Frankford stuff and they also have a totally "no quibble" approach to customer service.

YMMV

I have a Ponsness-Warren P200 turret press for small batches. The toolhead holds two calibers. I also bought a Lee Load Master. The factory Lee tool heads are junk. There was a guy who sold improved tool heads (mikesreloadingbench.com) and I have three of those. They really square-up the bullet seating/crimping process. So once set up it works fine for me. I like the design mods Lee made on the Pro 6000. Improved primer delivery and 6 stations.

john bickar wrote:

A Star is Eddie Felson.

I wonder what the cultural reference equivalent of a rcbs linear green machine would be?  Cousin Eddie instead of Fast Eddie?


Anyhow I had such a bad time with a lee I just use a single stage. The lyman turret allows me to leave most of my dies set up, and I made a spring steel case kicker and a catch tray, so batches go fast enough.

It's been hinted at but worth saying, if you get a progressive, also get something like this.

My old man's only press for decades making 38, 357, 9mm, and 45. He wasn't high volume but he loved using it and never felt under gunned, if you will pardon the pun.

Single stage, don't leave home without it.

If I remember... I'll put up a picture of my risers for single stage press's. Comfortable bench height results in bending over or squatting with every stroke. Milled them at an angle for a better view of the works.

TV on pause... defaulted to Amazon music ... Rush, Working Man ... years back, a music critic described Geddy's voice as '2 cats fighting in a potato sack'.

The OP already has a Forster Co AX. They beat nearly anything else in single-stage presses.

I started with a turret (Rdding T7) and couldn't see going back other than bespoke work from the Dillon 750 I upgraded to

Interesting, I started to strongly consider a turret system as it sounded as thought it might offer an advantage over the Forster Co-Ax press by having a turret set up with dies already.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what my needs really are and factor in benefit and compromise. I look forward to shooting with my friends very much and do so with some regularity. Unfortunately i can not shoot a lot of rounds in a single session, nor can i reload for very lengthy periods as a result of a physical challenge.

If i understand the working of a turret press (i reviewed several videos), in order to make one cartridge on a turret press it would require some 3-6 pulls on the lever.....pretty much the same as on my single stage.      On a progressive press, once the first set has cycled through, then one pull of the lever amounts to multiple loaded cartridges.... which sounds nice if the rounds are bullseye, safe and reproducibly created.

I do like the surety of weighing out each charge individually....it makes me feel that i am making a very precise and potentially accurate construct...and it sounds to be the safest way to make a cartridge but it does take quite a bit of time and a lot of pulls on the lever but i do make (i believe) nice quality rounds.

I'm not sure if it is possible to powder charge cases by hand on the Dillon 750 progressive press. I read the description on the Dillon website but i do not think they specifically address this.  Can one weigh out each individual charge and deliver it by hand instead of using their automatic powder throw... and if so would it be a big hassle to stop the cycle to access the case... and then resume the cycle?
or is it a bit of a stretch to expect a progressive press to load as safe, reliable and accurate cartridges as those manufactured on a turret press?

thank you all for putting up with my naive questions...

With the right powders (including N310 and WST) and maybe a few tweaks the Dillon is more accurate in powder throw than many loaders' scales (+/- 0.02gr for me). If you're using a powder that works well in a powder measure I don't think you'll be better served manually charging. But sure you could put a hornady funnel die or the like in position 2 and charge by hand if you insist

I posted this on another thread:

Allan Campbell wrote:Don't overlook the Frankford Arsenal x-10. I had a Hornady AP and it is a good press, but I had primer feed issues and the pawls would break if there was a jam.They were probably designed to be the point at which things would give. 
I sold the Hornady and bought a Dillon 650. To me it was a better press and it served me well, with some minor issues, primarily the primer feed and used primers backing up.
Then I got interested I in the Frankford Arsenal x-10 and bought it, planning to keep the Dillon for other calibers. I like the x-10 so well that I sold the Dillon. The x-10 is smoother and has more leverage, so less effort to operate, and the primer feed is bulletproof. 10 stations gives the option of swaging, a bullet feeder, a powder check and separate seating and crimp. For me anyway, it just works. The only downside I see is that it is a new product and that is always a risk.

Then someone said:

The Lyman Apex 10 looks very similar from the photos that they display. One question: Why does anyone need 10 stages?   

The answer is you don't need 10 stations, but it adds flexibility.  You can have separate seating and crimping (important) and a powder check (also important) and a bullet feeder (nice but not important) and primer pocket swaging as well as case insertion, sizing, priming and powder drop. So, 10 is nice but not necessary, but 5 is a bit limiting. That's my opinion, and worth just what you paid for it.


As to reliability, I had a few problems initially and Frankford was very helpful. The source came down to a flange nut (hardware store item) on which the flange was not perpendicular to the threaded hole and caused the priming punch to deflect when tightened and interfere with the Shellplate advancing smoothly, which caused the primers to jump just enough to jam the press. A new nut from Ace hardware and all is well for somewhere near 10,000 rounds.

WesG wrote:If I remember... I'll put up a picture of my risers for single stage press's. Comfortable bench height results in bending over or squatting with every stroke. Milled them at an angle for a better view of the works.

TV on pause... defaulted to Amazon music ... Rush, Working Man ... years back, a music critic described Geddy's voice as '2 cats fighting in a potato sack'.

Inquiring minds want to see the risers!  Do you give in person tours, Wes?

Separately, I am now wanting one of these X10 presses!!! Dang...

I would go with the Dillon.  I have two of their 550s, one I bought years ago and one that I inherited.  If I was buying a new one it would definitely be one that automatically indexed the shell plate.  With the 550 you have to manually rotate the shell plate with your left hand.  While its not too big a deal to do so, its a pain to have to manually perform that step.  I like the 750 because changing calibers is simple, you can add a case feeder etc which speeds things up greatly.

many of the new(er) generation of progressive and turret reloading presses have increased their capacity for the number of reloading dies they hold...is the 5 die capacity of the Dillon XL750 sufficient or will it prove to be a limitation/compromise?

not unless you just have to have a bullet feeder and powder check die

jglenn21 wrote:not unless you just have to have a bullet feeder and powder check die

It is not that straight forward, Jimmy!  Even presses with more than five stations, i.e. Dillon's 1050/1100 or Frankfort Arsenal X-10 don't allow for having BulletFeeder and Powder Check at the same time unless one is ready to give up on something.  Limitation comes from the native positions of the OEM Powder Measure and primer seating.  In both of the above mentioned design of the case activation mechanism and primer seating mechanism lead to having only three stations available after powder drop.  On all of my Dillon presses these three stations are for Mr. Bulletfeeder, Seating die and Crimp Die.  (Exceptions are 38 and 32 Full Wadcutter Toolheads - but that is different story.  I still have Mr. Bulletfeeders on both presses, because these are my two Small primer ones).  FWIW, Mark 7 Revolution has powder measure installed on Station 6 and that gives four stations after that - enough to have Powder Check and everything else. 

AP

appreciate the information.

It sounds as thought hand delivery of measured powder loads isn't possible on the Dillon XL750.
....so if i wanted a bullet feed device I would have to purchase an extra short version of the powder measure bar so the bullet feeder would fit

.... assuming one prefers to use a separate seating die from a crimp die that would leave me short one position 
 

position 1 decap/sizing die
position 2 expander/powder measure drop die 
position 3 powder check
position 4 bullet dropper/feeding station
position 5 bullet seating die
position 6 crimp die



It sounds as though that precludes the use of a powder check....does all this sound correct? 
Is there a better way?

brand-new wrote:appreciate the information
given that, I'm trying to configure an optimal and safe set up to load .45, 9mm.

that would consist of purchasing some sort of bullet feeder as well as an extra short version of the powder measure bar so the bullet feeder would fit?

if i understand the process correctly.... that would leaves me short one position assuming one prefers to use a separate seating die from a crimp die
 

position 1 decap/sizing die
position 2 expander/powder measure drop die 
position 3 powder check
position 4 bullet dropper/feeding station
position 5 bullet seating die
position 6 crimp die

Is that correct?

If you are talking in concept, - yes you are correct.  If you are trying to apply this concept to real world conditions and specifically to progressive presses available on the market - your concept only applicable to Mark 7 Revolution / Evolution / APEX 10 press.  Probably you are correct if same concept is applied to turret press that has six or more stations, i.e. Redding.  However I'd question the practicality of the using turret press for such setup.

AP

Not to argue, but at least on my x-10 you can have powder check, bullet feeder and separate seating and crimp. How? The x-10 bullet feeder also has micrometer set bullet seating built in.
My die setup is: 1) case insertion, 2) deprime, 3) size and deprime (why two deprimes? because some folks have an occasional primer pierced by the depriming pin and drawn back into the primer pocket. I guess this is with military crimped primer pockets. I have never had the issue.), 4) swage primer pocket, 5) prime, 6) flare, 7) powder drop, 8 ) powder check (I have used both RCBS and Mark Seven powder check dies. It's tight but they will fit.), 9) bullet drop and seat to depth (x-10 bullet feeder), 10) crimp.
Hope this clarifies the issue.
Allan

Glad you posted this, I reviewed a video on the x-10 press but thought the lever excursion to be a bit long and hard on the shoulder? Do you find it so or perhaps easier to effect than on the Dillon?