The Dragon - Part II

Ok, folks, here's my update. I build a second prototype and put it to some more tests. First, the accuracy, it is 100% on call. Unfortunately my Ransom Rest skills are below any standards and I'm NEVER able to get any group from any gun I test, so I didn't even bother, I shot offhand at 50 and 25 yards and just called my shots. 
My first test was with my standard 200gr Brazos bullet over 3.7gr BE. The accuracy was excellent, my first five shots were two Xs, two 10s and one 9 - and we all know what happens after that, yeah, pretty embarrassing, to say the least. Still, all shots were called perfectly, so I do believe in capable hands this gun will clean the long line. 
What wasn't fun though is the recoil, it felt like shooting .375Mag revolver, very snappy and stout. So I loaded a few rounds with 200gr bullet over just 3.3gr BE - and that resulted in a very pleasant shooting, pretty much like .38 wadcutters out of S&W 52. The muzzle jump was greatly reduced and I was able to shoot some rapid fire strings and stay on target most of the time. And I could probably go down to 3.2-3.0gr for the short line.
So - I think we're good to go. I have three orders in the pipeline, and will be ready to take your orders after that. And those of you coming to Midwinter in February will be able to try it out at the practice range, I will load some more ammo, but feel free to bring your own, I'd be very interested to test various loads and find the good combination that works.

Almost forgot - Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

I applaud you!!!  Amazing how clean and beautiful it looks.

Very clean looking!
Now for a .32!

Looks very nice! And a very interesting project.

But unless I am mistaken, at this point, it is just a blow back .45 (hence the harsh recoil) with the gas ports basically doing nothing, compared to the original Dragon?

What loads did the original shoot when Ed M had it? (Darn auto correct wouldn't let me type his name without correcting it to "Message")

I have a Steyr GB, which operates on a similar principal as the original Dragon. (Fixed barrel, blow back 9mm with re-directing gas pressure) I nearly forgot that I had it until now, but will look at it again to refresh my memory on how it operates.

Perhaps that that is where Mr. M came up with the concept for the Dragon.

Correct, it is just a blow back .45, but the original Dragon is a blow back .45 too. The only difference is that this gun uses two gas ports as opposed to the original Dragon four ports. Otherwise it is basically the same design (with some variations in the barrel block underlug, recoil rod, slide stop, etc).

I was told that Mr. Masaki recommended very hot 5+ grains of Bullseye load - which explains why he had four ports. I shot my Masaki gun with my 3.7gr load and it functioned correctly and the recoil was more than manageable. With this design I went the opposite way, reducing the load as much as possible while still retaining enough velocity for the bullet to be accurate enough at the long line. Seems like it does work, and I'm planning further experiments with 160gr bullets and 1:13 twist rate. The .32 is next, I do believe I can solve the magazine problem, but it is a long shot (pun intended )

Yes, both are blow back. What I was getting at, was that the original was apparently using the gas ports to enable the use of higher velocity loads with less muzzle flip and felt recoil. Like the Steyr.

To clarify, I think you are doing a very nice job here. Just curious of the apparent differences!

Please don't take my post as criticism.

That's right, and my first prototype also had four gas ports, that's when I found that my lead bullets don't even reach the paper and hit the ground somewhere at 30 yards mark, and my jacketed bullets don't even have enough oomph to leave the barrel, during one of my tests I plugged the barrel real good with three bullets and the fourth one just barely sticking out of the muzzle. I had to take the gun back home, heat it with the torch till all the lead melts, and then use various tools to scrape the copper jacket off the barrel walls. Just to give you an idea how much gas can tiny .118" holes vent out. So no wonder you need all that 5+ grain of powder for the Masaki gun.

Keep up the good work Eugene, it's a very interesting project!

Now I'll have to dig out the Steyr and play with it a bit to refresh my memory, out of curiosity!

I don't know much about the detail of gun design, but if you angled the gas ports up would it offset the muzzled raising, or do they vent too little gas to make that type of difference?

The gas ports ARE pointing up, so it does work like a compensator.

Steyr directed gases internally into the bushing, unlocking it, unlocking slide.  Delayed blowback. Me thinks. 

As far as I can tell Dragon gun is a blowback like Marvel conversions with gasses venting through the tube, but outside.  Kind of like Magnaport, except different in that barrel is untouched and gasses blow out of the block close to the chamber. Correct me I am wrong.

wow...very impressive

i used to shoot an hk p7 for many years (many years ago) and the trigger guard would get very hot from the gas delay system they employ. especially notable after 100 rounds or so.

which leads me to ask, does the exhaust tube get very hot as some cycle the slide by grasping the slide toward the muzzle end. not critiquing by any means as i'm so impressed by what you've created....just curious.

Do you use the donor pistol slide and/or barrel or do they get replaced?

which leads me to ask, does the exhaust tube get very hot as some cycle the slide by grasping the slide toward the muzzle end. not critiquing by any means as i'm so impressed by what you've created....just curious.

It does warm up a little bit, but not to glowing cherry red

Do you use the donor pistol slide and/or barrel or do they get replaced?

Yes, donor barrel and slide are used.

Do we send you only the barrel and slide? Also the bushing? If we do not want any of the extras, do we still ship the frame?

tovaert wrote:Do we send you only the barrel and slide? Also the bushing? If we do not want any of the extras, do we still ship the frame?

No, you send the entire gun. Once again, most of the parts are reused, and I believe the best option is to start with a GI-style pistol like SA or Tisas. I will cut the frame bridge for the barrel block, turn the donor barrel to fit the block, cut the slide to remove top portion and finish the build. The only parts that will not be used are the bushing, the recoil rod and the spring.

Awesome to see this coming together. Can’t wait to see how it works with the 1:13 barrel.