Hammerli 208, 208s or 215?

Ok new guy here, I’ve had the urge to buy a Hammerli all my life after seeing them in the Shooters Bible in the 70s.  I’ve contemplated modded Ruger, Brownings, S&Ws, I’m still drawn to the hammerli.  What should I buy?  I’m 57 I need glasses to shoot open sights, I have them. I understand parts are hard to find and expensive, what spares do I need? What are the advantages of the 208s and 215 over the 208?  I’m looking at spending $1200 to $1500, see quite a few used on GB, are there any issues I should look for?

Thanks for your advice

I know a prominent Hammerli guy (Shue) that prefers the triggers on the 208 models versus the 208S. But, that’s all a personal preference thing. He also commented recently (IIRC) that the 215, despite being the “cheaper” gun versus the 208/208S, shoot just as well and sometimes better in testing.

The biggest difference is the 'S' models have an adjustable length of pull, which unless you really need it is more so a point of potential failure than a benefit. Their are a few different "trigger latch" (trigger shoes) options, a personal preference thing. Original weight set is desirable to some. The gun was made for a fairly long period of time and minor changes did occur over its production lifetime, just something to keep in mind.

Dryfire plugs, Recoil springs, firing pin/springs, replacement magazine bases if the original bakelite, would be ideal to have on hand as would the neco moly lube. Far from inclusive list, just what I can think of off the top of my head.

I do own one, and I like it a lot. That said it is honestly a bit of an overrated gun, not to say it isn't a good gun, but it is not a magical item that will make you shoot better just cause you are holding it.

A few months ago I bought a very nice condition 215 off of The Attic on Gunbroker. Service from The Attic was first rate, and I bought spare mags from them too. The gun shoots very well, my scored instantly jumped as compared to the Nelson kit I was running. I did need to replace the mainspring, recoil spring, and firing pin, all easy to locate. The early ones have a hard to remove recoil spring, so I opted for a 1979 model that has the easy removal setup. Good luck!

Good info in this thread about triggers. Applies to the 215 as well.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t22992-hammerli-208-vs-208s

Dave

The 208s has a 2 stage trigger, which I find much better than a single stage. Not all of the 215's have a 2 stage trigger, and none of the 208 pistols have a 2 stage trigger. I like the fore and aft trigger reach adjustment and have never had it come out of adjustment.

I bought a 208 International which has an American style magazine release (button on side of grip).  It seemed no better than my 41’s but mags are hard to source.  
I then tried the 208s with 2 stage trigger. This aspect is far superior to my standard 208 because the feel is that of a roll trigger. No discernible stop, just smooth soft travel till discharge.  My scores took a step improvement.
Now I'm looking to sell my basic 208 for short money. After owning the s model, nothing else will do.

And for the record, im 57 and no longer shooting the occasional master score…but until there is a more fullfilling challenge, or better people to enjoy elsewhere, ill stick with bullseye.

You still have to control the 2nd stage. I’m shooting better scores with the 215 single stage vs the 208 2 stage but that could just be my current 208 setup . That’s the challenge with pistol

S&W 41 magazines run just fine in the 208 and 215. Just cut the slot for the mag catch.

Back in the day, I had two Hammerli 208S models. One has since set several national records.
I really wish I had those two back! My best .22 aggregate was 889-48x with my 208s. Did I mention I really liked them?

Never had one issue with either. I greatly prefer the 2-stage trigger, so 208S is the only one I'd consider.

The relatively new Walther CSP Expert is pretty close to a reincarnation of the 208. In case you want modern.

For your budget range, $1200-1500, you’ll get a better condition 208 or 215 that will give you more years of trouble-free performance than a 208s. 
 Exc+ to mint condition in a 208s is gonna cost you.  

Remember, these Hämmerlis do not take kindly to abuse.

Also, and this is purely personal, the finish and workmanship as time went on, noticeably with the 208s examples imported by SIG in Exeter, is not all that great.  The often cited comment that the 208s is the “better finished” gun compared to the 215 is, to my eye, just not true in the relative sense.  (But, maybe that doesn’t matter to you so much?)
And, on another point, my taste would be for a complete package with original box, tools, and numbered test target.  It’s just another indicator that the gun itself has been better taken care of.
On the import market, (ie: guns being currently sold on GB, Simpson Ltd, etc), an unboxed used Hämmerli 208, 208s, 215, etc with evidence of cosmetic wear is more likely to have been a “club gun” with a hundred thousand rounds through it before coming into your possession. 
I abhor buggered screw heads, scratches from ham-fisted field stripping, etc.

This may be taken as a negative reflection on my tastes, but to me, the nicest of the Hammerli 200 series pistols is the early 1950s era Hämmerli-Walther Olympia.  They’re fine shooting instruments that are also works of art.  Early Hämmerli free pistols, rapid fire pistols, and standard pistols are in a class of their own in terms of workmanship.

Over the years, I have had many friendships with old school Hämmerli folks, such as former head factory gunsmith Rudy Marent, noted collectors and Hämmerli historians Ferdie Heidiger and Klaus Brunnemann, and former US importers Wade and Hannelore Anderson, and have spent many hours discussing the finer points of Hämmerli workmanship.  So, my perspective may be more highly biased towards the early rifles and pistols from the 1920s - 1970s.

On the other hand, if I was looking today for match pistol for high mileage use, I’d probably buy a Feinwerkbau or Pardini.

Earlier this year I got a good deal on a new Hammeri xesse. How good is this pistol compared to these older pistols. It looks like its design comes from them. I have only put a few hundred rounds through it but I shoot better scores with my Clark Ruger and FCW Marvel.

Larry Carter shot the record for the NRA short course (25 yards) with a Hammerli 215 with 2 stage trigger. The record still holds at 300-15X. There are likely other .22 pistol records that were shot with the Hammerli 208s although there are some records that have held since the '60's which were probably shot with, highly massaged by military armorers, S&W model 41's. I like the Hammerli grip angle which isn't a whole lot different than the 1911.

Everyone talks about how "accurate" a given pistol is.  Making a .22 rimfire barrel that will group inside the X-ring isn't rocket science.  If you go out & buy almost any decent target pistol these days, the groups off a rest are probably indistinguishable.  What difference there may be is going to be pretty small compared to the "hold" of a good shooter.

The issue is all about the ergonomics of how easy it is for an individual shooter to access that accuracy.  Weight, balance, sights, recoil characteristics, trigger adjustability, grips, etc. are what allow people to shoot good scores with varying ease.  All of that will depend on the shooter, and what works well for one person may be useless for another.  Just because so-and-so set a record with a certain pistol doesn't mean you will ever be able to do that same (or come close).  

If you practice enough, you can get used to a lot of stuff that isn't "ideal", but it takes patience, dedication, and a lot of range time & ammo.   Even then, there are limits.  I coach a college team with a lot of small women.  There is no way they can properly shoot a Model 41 with a fixed trigger position & a fat magazine in the grip.   My wife is 5' tall, and when she was on the team, they mostly shot Model 41's.  She helped set a National Team record by dragging her finger on the side of the trigger.  Give the small gals a Pardini or a Benelli with the magazine forward, and they can shoot very well, with a lot less trouble.  

Basically, find what works for you, and don't get too hung up on what pistol (in someone else's hands) shoots super well.  Look for adjustability.  The reason the high end European pistols are popular is that you can set the trigger to suit just about anyone's preferences.  With the magazine outside the grip, the grip makers also have a lot more flexibility to adjust rake angle, length of pull, etc.

gwhite wrote:Everyone talks about how "accurate" a given pistol is.  Making a .22 rimfire barrel that will group inside the X-ring isn't rocket science.  If you go out & buy almost any decent target pistol these days, the groups off a rest are probably indistinguishable.  What difference there may be is going to be pretty small compared to the "hold" of a good shooter.

The issue is all about the ergonomics of how easy it is for an individual shooter to access that accuracy.  Weight, balance, sights, recoil characteristics, trigger adjustability, grips, etc. are what allow people to shoot good scores with varying ease.  All of that will depend on the shooter, and what works well for one person may be useless for another.  Just because so-and-so set a record with a certain pistol doesn't mean you will ever be able to do that same (or come close).  

If you practice enough, you can get used to a lot of stuff that isn't "ideal", but it takes patience, dedication, and a lot of range time & ammo.   Even then, there are limits.  I coach a college team with a lot of small women.  There is no way they can properly shoot a Model 41 with a fixed trigger position & a fat magazine in the grip.   My wife is 5' tall, and when she was on the team, they mostly shot Model 41's.  She helped set a National Team record by dragging her finger on the side of the trigger.  Give the small gals a Pardini or a Benelli with the magazine forward, and they can shoot very well, with a lot less trouble.  

Basically, find what works for you, and don't get too hung up on what pistol (in someone else's hands) shoots super well.  Look for adjustability.  The reason the high end European pistols are popular is that you can set the trigger to suit just about anyone's preferences.  With the magazine outside the grip, the grip makers also have a lot more flexibility to adjust rake angle, length of pull, etc.

I think that you left out good trigger action, sights and reliability. I think that it is obvious that only elite shooters have the chance to equal or break a record. It is nice to know that your pistol is capable in the right hands. It seems like most civilian bullseye shooters, these days, don't have a clue as to the accuracy of their pistols and ammo at 50 yards. There have been some outstanding women bullseye pistol shooters who were quite small who excelled with pistols as large as a 1911 in .45 ACP caliber. Judy Tant, Ruby Fox and Kim Dyer come to mind. Making Master takes most of us a while and takes a lot of testing, training and quality competition. Once you have decided that this is the sport for you, don't handicap yourself with inferior equipment. I've always looked at what equipment the better shooters were using and when possible, discussed it with them. I still think that it is a valid tactic today.