Camp Perry Guns

I am a new member to this forum.  Forgive me if this question has been asked thousands of times.  I am new to bullseye shooting.  And looking at buying equipment correctly the first time.  So I'm looking for advice and guidance on a few questions.

1. Where can I get a bullseye box for scoped pistol
2. what kind of pistols are "generally" successful in .22 LR at Perry
3. I have reloaded for years.  Do shooters at Perry usually shoot factory or reloads for 45 "wadcutter" guns ??

Thanks you in advance for any assistance.

Again, sorry if this questions is repetitive

lambo wrote:I am a new member to this forum.  Forgive me if this question has been asked thousands of times.  I am new to bullseye shooting.  And looking at buying equipment correctly the first time.  So I'm looking for advice and guidance on a few questions.

1. Where can I get a bullseye box for scoped pistol
2. what kind of pistols are "generally" successful in .22 LR at Perry
3. I have reloaded for years.  Do shooters at Perry usually shoot factory or reloads for 45 "wadcutter" guns ??

Thanks you in advance for any assistance.

Again, sorry if this questions is repetitive

Welcome to the madness!

1. There are some out there but they’re getting pricey (for what you really get).  Only those built in tge mid70s or later were capable of taking scoped pistols… if you’re handy with woodworking you can make one.  Others muddle through with modified Pelican cases, which have some major advantages.  

2. There are pistols of choice for the “big  and little dingers” at Perry are about as follows in popularity:
    Pardini, Hammerli 208/215/Xesse, & some older Olympic models
    1911 with a 22 conversion like Marvel or Nelson
    S&W 41, High Standard, Buckmark, Ruger 22 Auto

3. The top level shooters tend to buy custom loads for Perry, but most shoot reloads for matches other than Perry.  The general trend has been a move away from cast bullets towards jacketed 185 gr JHP or swaged 185 LHPSWC.  You will shoot a large quantity training and competing so a progressive press is very recommended.

Pachmayr boxes tend to require modification of the tray height to work well with optics. Some low set dots will work tho.

The solution I had to accept was the Gun Ho box. I bought a 3-pistol and a large box and never looked back.

Now I have about 6 Pachmayr boxes for sale lol.

Boxes aren’t the easiest thing to find. You can make one if you’re handy. Other than that, you’re mostly at the whims of the used market. Don’t let that stop you from shooting—they’re convenient but not a necessity. I know several lefties that keep their guns in Pelican-type cases and use a simple benchtop stand for their spotting scopes.

You see a smorgasbord going up and down the line at Perry. Even without considering budget, picking one depends entirely on your preferences and your hands—grip size, grip angle, trigger reach, trigger break feel, trigger adjustability, optics mounting, gun balance, gun weight, whether you consider the .22 a “warm-up” or “trainer” to the 1911, and so on. You can pretty much shoot anything for .22—just needs to be well-balanced, reliable with good ammo, and have a decent trigger. My best single TF target (100-9X) was shot with a mostly stock Buckmark. My best aggregate scores have been shot with 1911 conversions and Hammerlis. Records have been set at Perry with Rugers and M41s. The military teams are mostly shooting Hammerlis and conversions, with some Pardinis.

Most people without sponsors or military team budgets are reloading.

Welcome! There’s no dumb questions. Only dumb questions are the ones that weren’t asked.

Guns are capital equipment 

Your 22s should be the best pieces that you own. 
Notice the above statement is plural.

 It may take you a while to figure out what works best for you and it never hurts to have a spare that you are 100% comfortable with. Focus on 22 shooting the most. They are inherently precise and inexpensive to use.

Sounds like you’re already shooting a 45 of some sort. That’s not always an easy class to shoot. Compare the relative scores. It also isn’t an artillery event.  4 grains of Bullseye and a lead 200 gr bullet is pretty standard. Use less to train if it functions

Boxes. The traditional Pachmyr and similar boxes are convenient for club events generally involving several guns to cover a 2700 + EIC's in one day. Most Perry regulars use them simply because that is their routine box. But at Perry and the other big events you typically shoot just one primary gun each day/time your squad/relay are called to the line. Even if you are rich/serious, only Primary + Back-up gun needed at most. The rest of your guns/ammo can be safely left in the car. The typical 4 gun boxes are quite heavy and cumbersome. And, if you travel to Ohio via commercial airline they are not practical.

Minimalists (e.g. Olympian Keith Sanderson) go to the line with a small back pack containing gun, ammo, small binoculars, stapler, etc., and shoot rather well!

There are several threads on this forum describing converted Pelican type boxes (very suitable for air travel).

If you already have a scope/tripod, I suggest that you go to a local league/match and check the options out first before spending a lot on a big traditional box.

Members,
Thanks you so much for your quick responses.  The info really did help.

Thanks again

You can also convert the old Pachmayer boxes to a drawer type box. Your guns will never dump loose from the finger tray again

1) lots of good options, watch this forum and eBay for deals.
2) Buy once, cry once. i agree the 22 should be your most expensive, best bit of equipment. Reccommend Matchguns MG2 or Hammerli 208S . Pardini’s are popular, I don’t care for them.
3) Don’t  buy special match ammo for perry until you are regularly shooting mid 90’s slow fire. Highly recommend Zero loaded ammo (rozedistributing). Website is not great, call them on the phone.

I will offer a different perspective. 

You have two general classes of matches "Match Gun" and "Excellence in Competition (EIC)". Match gun events you will see guns with dots (and some metallic), EICs are metallic. Rules for each category of match is slightly different, but it is possible to have equipment that is suitable for each type of match. Both EICs and Match Gun events happen at Camp Perry. 

Match Gun (3 gun 2700) Matches are typically shot with a 22 and 45 (used for both the centerfire portion and the 45 portion). Some shooters elect to shoot a dedicated CF gun, 32S&WL/32acp/38spl are typical caliber options if not shooting your 45 in CF. I personally have shot 2700s with both a 2 guns and 3 guns. I would recommend starting with 2 guns. 

EICs are a bit more specialty, the original being the Service Pistol EIC, think P100 and NTI/NTT. EICs also exist for 22s and Revolvers. These matches are all metallic. 

Regardless of which events you are looking to get involved with, read the rulebook and ask questions if needed.

Now we have a bit more of a background on to the questions.

1) Gunbox.  If you can find a local club with active bullseye shooters, its a good bet that someone has or knows of a gun box that is available. You can also make one from plywood if you have the skillset and tools, or adapt a pelican style case. I shoot out of a homebuilt box, but I don't use it to bring my guns to the line. I keep the guns in a separate pelican case or a backpack. 

2) 22 Pistol. I have seen success with all sorts of different target 22s. I personally recommend going with an option that is in production and is widely used by others, such as a Ruger (or similar such as Smith Victory or Browning Buckmark), Pardini, or 1911 conversion. Yes Hammerli's are cool, as are other old school target 22s and more niche options. However the more unique/specialized your gun the harder it is to get it fixed/find parts. Yes I do realize that their are some smiths/venders that are specialized in the more niche guns, however they are not always available. I primarily shoot a 1911 22 conversion with great success, I have mine set up such that I can easily remove the dot to shoot it in 22 EIC matches as well.   

3) Reloads vs Factory ammo. I have shot both, I would argue the good reloads are equivalent to Factory ammo. Let me reiterate the importance of good reloads, if the gun doesn't function the ammo reliably, its hard to do well in this game. 

A few other thoughts and recommendations.

If you are really serious about getting in the game, I would recommend budgeting more for a 45 than a 22. A 45 that is accurized and set up for you is a fantastic experience, however it is not an inexpensive endeavor. I can shoot equivalent scores with my ruger mk1 and my 208, that experience is not the same with a 45. I have a Range Officer in 45 and a purpose built bullseye 45, the purpose built 45 is more comfortable to shoot from an ergonomic perspective, it is more accurate, and I shoot it better. This is not to say that the Range officer is not capable, it is, it just is not in the same class as the purpose built gun. If shooting 2 guns in a 2700, 2/3s of the match is shot with the 45. 

I also strongly would encourage you to pursue EIC matches, it could potentially mean additional equipment, but I have found more learning and improvement in a shorter amount of time shooting EICs than match gun type events. 

All that said, try not to get caught up in the equipment. It is very easy to chase 'perfect' equipment, while having excellent equipment. The biggest gains in this game are made from self-improvement, not equipment improvements.

I find it VERY hard to beleive that the High Standard Pistols are NOT mentioned as the TOP Tier Pistol that they are !!! I would guess that the HS Pistols have won more National Championships than the combined total of the other pistols mentioned in this thread. I know that High Standard Pistols won Gold and Silver at the 2000 Olympics in Atlanta. The Gold Medal Winner and his Dad are pictured in our Camp Perry Bldg in 2023. His Medals are Posted on our website !!!  This was my 31st year at Camp Perry for HS and, this was High Standard's 72nd year at CP represented by Bob Shea and/or me. We always build extra High Standard Target Pistols for Camp Perry. We always run some type of Special at the matches AND, we ALWAYS sell them out !!! This year was our worst sales year at Camp Perry since 1993 due to a 150 MPH Tornado and a CAT II Hurricane  that hit Houston just a few weeks prior to my leaving for Camp Perry. There are MANY High Standards used at Camp Perry and Club Matches around the World !!! Everyday, we ship parts ALL over the World to support the High Standard Pistol Shooters in other countries. Our Houston TX High Standard "X-Series" Victor Pistols will OUT Shoot any CT Pistol on any day. I display a letter from Doc Young in my Commercial Row Bldg every year that states(w/ Targets shown) that his "Off The Shelf" Victor outshot his Hammerli 208 at 50yds and, that he was switching to the Victor. It should ALSO be noted that the Houston TX High Standard Plant(the entirety of the CT Plant with Prints, Gauges, Tooling, and Bob Shea's Knowledge)build the REAL High Standard Pistols and build parts and service all High Standard Pistols back to the Model B of 1932. Hammerli has been closed for a number of years. Parts and service are not readily available!!! High Standard makes MANY of the wear parts to keep the Hammerli 208 pistols on the Range. We even made 208 slides at the request of one of our larger customers !!! Some of the other pistols that are mentioned here are TOP Competitors of High Standard but they are NOT "Made in USA" and, the higher costs do NOT increase their performance!!! Our Bob Shea trained service gunsmiths have 27 to 31 years experience. I GUESS THAT I NEEDED TO BUY MORE ADVERTISING AND INCREASE PRODUCTION !!! - Alan Aronstein

I have been shooting my High Standard recently. I find it more accurate than my Clark barreled M41. About the same as the Xesse’s. But the Xesse’s are easier for me to shoot well.
  I think if I was more disciplined the HS might be the best of my group. But I do get more fliers with it. I blame the balance. 
  I think the difficulty I have with consistency with my HS helps my shooting skills. If I am right, the results are rewarding.
  It just feels good to see a tight group.

Al A @ HS Please consider running clinics at Camp Perry and elsewhere on how to service and use the HS pistols. How to strip, change recoil springs, problem solving etc. The old guys at clubs all over the country who previously did so are gone and there’s a vacuum of information.

Another way to look at 22 pistols, they are in a way like chewing gum, everyone has a different brand and flavor preference. As time has gone by I would wager a "flavor of the week" trend could be established.

If you want people to buy more HS. 

Step 1) Find a distributer and make sure they have a stock of 10 to 20 pistols on hand to sell to dealers. 
Step 2) When you find a distributer send a press release to American Rifleman , Guns and Ammo and some of these bloggers on you tube and let them shoot the gun. If you send a gun out make sure it is 100% right because first thing they will complain about is reliability.

Over close to 60 years of shooting, I've shot a lot of different .22's .  I started out with my father's 1950's small-grip High Standard Supermatic.  In college, I shot a HS Citation.  When I  was in grad school, I bought a HS Victor, but it was an early one and jammed a lot.  

From there, I got a Browning medalist.  I didn't like the trigger, so I bought a S&W Model 41.  The grip was fat, and it would only run reliably on high velocity ammo.  I bought another High Standard Victor at Bob Shea's shop in Daly City, CA.  This was in the late 1970's when High Standard's quality control was abysmal.   By then, I'd learned a lot about basic gunsmithing, and spent 6 hours deburring it and polishing things.  My scores immediately jumped up compared the the 41.  I think the first time I fired it I cleaned a rapid fire target.  I immediately sold the 41...

I got a good deal on a second Victor at a gun show because the trigger felt awful.  The hole for the take-down plunger was drilled too deep, and the takedown spring was pushing on the trigger.  I fixed that, and I shot both the Victors for years.   I tuned the triggers to be identical, and kept one at my Club for home matches, with the other at home for away matches.

The college team I shot with had acquired several Benelli MP90S's, and had good success with them.  I purchased one in 2000.  The grip fit me perfectly, and I could adjust the trigger position, weight & stages to my hearts content.  The lower bore line made recoil easier to manage, and my scores went up.  

My youngest daughter started shooting league matches with my wife and me.  There was no way she could shoot a Victor properly due to the grip size & fixed trigger position.  I got an XXS Benelli grip from Rink for her.  I would shoot first relay in matches, frantically swap the grips, and she would shoot it 2nd relay.  

My wife was shooting a Pardini SP at that time, and I figured I'd give that a try.  My Benelli became my daughter's pistol, and I competed with the Pardini for several years, but always with the feeling that I shot better with the Benelli.  I live in Massachusetts, and it was illegal to buy another Benelli at that time.  Eventually, we got a target pistol exemption bill passed, and I  immediately went out and bought another Benelli MP90S.  My scores went up noticeably.  

in 2009, I was back working with the college team as an assistant coach.  Their Benellis are getting old.  They are no longer being imported, and it's hard to get parts.  We bought 5 Pardinis in 2016.  Four were lemons, and it took (partly due to  the pandemic) until 2021 to get Pardini to replace the bolts.

Around 2019, I got intrigued by the MatchGun MG2 as a possible replacement for the team Benellis.  I bought two to evaluate, one for me, and one for my wife.  They are even more adjustable that the Pardinis & Benellis, and the recoil recover is amazing.    My scores had been declining with age, and they are now slowly climbing again.  My wife's scores have also improved.  She describes her MG2 as "It likes to shoot 10s."

That's the good news... The bad news is that they are very quirky, and their quality/version control was pathetic.  You can't clear a loaded round without a lot of fussy manipulation, and when they jam (which some do a LOT), they can fire out of battery.  I have a small pile of shredded cases from when that has happened.  It's never hurt me or the pistol, but there is no way I'm letting beginning students near one...

Cesare Morini is a brilliant pistol designer, but he has NO idea how to run a manufacturing business.  He apparently got thrown out of the company he founded in Switzerland that bears his name.   MatchGuns has now closed their doors, I'm guessing as a combination of a growing reputation for selling unreliable pistols, combined with excessive warranty costs.  The name & manufacturing rights have been purchased by a manufacturing company that had started making parts for MG under contract towards the end.  They are now in the process of getting licensed to make guns, and will hopefully start making new (more reliable) MG pistols in the not too distant future.

There is a mysterious quality in target pistols that is described as being "forgiving."  It varies from shooter to shooter, but some pistols have a reputation for being more "forgiving" than others.  Based on my personal experience, I would rate the ones I've shot a lot in the following order:

Smith & Wesson Model 41 (least forgiving)
Browning Medallist
High Standard Victor
Pardini SP
Benelli MP90S
MatchGun MG2  (most forgiving)

With enough ammo & practice, I'm sure all of these can shoot master level scores (and probably have).  Some issues (like the grip) can be dealt with to some extent.  

The most forgiving pistol on the list that you can actually buy new is the Pardini, but I keep hearing mutterings that they have continued to mess with a successful design, and that their service has deteriorated.  They are also WAY overpriced.  I think If I was starting out again and wanted to buy new, I'd get a High Standard (I think that is still possible?), but ONLY if it fit my hand really well and the trigger reach was good.

gwhite wrote: I think If I was starting out again and wanted to buy new, I'd get a High Standard (I think that is still possible?), but ONLY if it fit my hand really well and the trigger reach was good.

Out of all of those pistols, you've never tried a Marvel or Nelson .22 conversion on a 1911?

Especially for Bullseye competition.

Just curious.

Nope.  I trashed my elbow eons ago, and I can't shoot centerfire anymore.  No point in shooting a conversion if I don't shoot a 1911 for other reasons.  

I do have a .38 special Colt National Match that's not too hard on my elbow, but shooting a full 900 would be too much.  Someday I should dust my centerfire guns off & make sure they still work.  My daughter has already laid claim to my Gold Cup.

Understandable. Thanks!

I've never shot any euro type stuff.

I have a 41, High Standards (military), 208s (with 1911 grip), and conversions. Always seem to end up shooting the conversions. I do also shoot .45 though.

I think the best pistol is the one you will shoot the most. Euro guns for me tend to be nose heavy and the grip angle is tough on a nerve condition I have. 

I would love to try the GSP 500 because the AP20 was a great gun and I liked the GSP I tried. 

I think reliability is a big deal for beginners because  no likes to ruin a match b/c of ALIBI the first few matches there is a lot to learn and you do not need to deal with gun problems too. 

What kind of 22lr do you have????

i have 2 bullseye type boxes that i can't use and wanted to sell but i was never able to find a reasonable shipping cost. shipping is brutal.

Where are you located ?

san diego california