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JRV
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Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by Fogbank2 12/13/2024, 3:28 pm
Does anyone still shoot wadcutter ammunition in matches anymore. Given the various rule changes in Precision Pistol and CMP-EIC what are the true differences between a "Hardball Pistol" and a "Wad Pistol"? Historical perspective?
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by james r chapman 12/13/2024, 4:03 pm
Most always shoot some form of wadcutters.
Hardball was the old 230 grain pumpkins
. No longer required.
Often 185 JHP for 50 yd at high level competition.
Hardball was the old 230 grain pumpkins
. No longer required.Often 185 JHP for 50 yd at high level competition.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by Wobbley 12/13/2024, 4:46 pm
Now the differences are now called “Match Pistol” and “Service Pistol”. Both are defined in the CMP rules. Basically the difference is type of sights allowed (optical vs irons). Both allow “any safe ammo” so everyone shoots the same or similar ammo in both types of guns. I still sometimes call my “Service pistol” my “Hardball gun” more out of habit.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by Cmysix 12/16/2024, 4:36 pm
I am also interested in the differences in the "build" I have a Jim Clark sr. "wadgun" and a "ballgun" what are the build differences?
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by Merick 12/16/2024, 5:46 pm
My understanding is the mechanical differences are mostly the spring strength, and a wad gun should have the barrel throated to feed swc, a ball gun may or may not be throated that aggressively. Secondarlily the leaf spring is set for the corresponding trigger pull rules. Finally there may or may not be some secret sauce on barrel lockup, that varies by who you ask.
I think you could swap recoil and leaf springs to make a wad gun into a ball gun, and probably vice versa.
I think you could swap recoil and leaf springs to make a wad gun into a ball gun, and probably vice versa.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by Fogbank2 12/23/2024, 9:44 am
The reason behind my original question was that based on my research in the NRA Precision Pistol rules document Revised May 2018 sections 3.5 & 3.6 page 11 and the CMP rules document 26th Edition 2023 page 38 section 4.2 seem to have the same rules. Trigger weights requirements and allowed sights appear to be the same.
Looking into the ammunition I was not able to find any manufacturer that makes .45ACP wadcutter ammunition. I only found wadcutter ammunition for .38 caliber.
As a novice in the sport I find the terms "Wad Gun" and "Hardball Pistol" confusing. Please correct me if my research is flawed.
Looking into the ammunition I was not able to find any manufacturer that makes .45ACP wadcutter ammunition. I only found wadcutter ammunition for .38 caliber.
As a novice in the sport I find the terms "Wad Gun" and "Hardball Pistol" confusing. Please correct me if my research is flawed.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by chiz1180 12/23/2024, 10:07 am
The CMP offers two different types of matches, Match Pistol, which is very similar (but not 100% exactly the same) to the NRA Precision Pistol rules and Excellence in Competition Matches (EICs). The CMP Match Pistol and NRA Precision Pistol matches are where you would typically utilize a wadgun. The EIC matches, specifically the Service Pistol Match is where you would utilize a "hardball" gun, details for the current requirements for service pistols can be found under CMP Pistol Competition Rules 27th edition 4.4.1 "Service Pistols".
The reason that both the NRA and CMP have similar matches with similar rules is a bit complex, but is rooted in some leadership and organizational issues with the NRA.
In regards to wadcutter ammunition, most that shoot it load their own. It can be more economical and you can tune your load for your specific gun. That said many people shoot other profiles of projectile (JHP, FMJ-RN, LRN, ect).
In hopes to make things simpler here is a breakdown
Wadgun
-Typically shot in NRA Precision Pistol Matches or CMP Match Pistol
-These guns may have metallic or any sights (think red dot or pistol scope)
-Historically these guns would be shot with SWC type ammunition, however as previously mentioned not necessarily the case anymore
-In the case of a 45 wadgun the trigger weight minimum is 3 1/2 lbs
Hardball (aka Service Pistol, governed by CMP rules)
-Older term used for service pistol. Historically these were 45 Caliber 1911s with metallic sights, a 4lb minimum trigger weight and you were required to use/issued 230gr "service load" ball ammunition.
-In a more modern context this is the term for a service pistol (no smaller than 9mm, no larger than 45acp) with metallic sights and a 4lb minimum trigger weight. Any safe ammo is acceptable.
Hopefully this helps.
The reason that both the NRA and CMP have similar matches with similar rules is a bit complex, but is rooted in some leadership and organizational issues with the NRA.
In regards to wadcutter ammunition, most that shoot it load their own. It can be more economical and you can tune your load for your specific gun. That said many people shoot other profiles of projectile (JHP, FMJ-RN, LRN, ect).
In hopes to make things simpler here is a breakdown
Wadgun
-Typically shot in NRA Precision Pistol Matches or CMP Match Pistol
-These guns may have metallic or any sights (think red dot or pistol scope)
-Historically these guns would be shot with SWC type ammunition, however as previously mentioned not necessarily the case anymore
-In the case of a 45 wadgun the trigger weight minimum is 3 1/2 lbs
Hardball (aka Service Pistol, governed by CMP rules)
-Older term used for service pistol. Historically these were 45 Caliber 1911s with metallic sights, a 4lb minimum trigger weight and you were required to use/issued 230gr "service load" ball ammunition.
-In a more modern context this is the term for a service pistol (no smaller than 9mm, no larger than 45acp) with metallic sights and a 4lb minimum trigger weight. Any safe ammo is acceptable.
Hopefully this helps.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by Ed Hall 12/24/2024, 10:52 am
"Wadcutter" ammunition is actually referring to semi-wadcutter bullets and "ball" refers to full power round nose (usually jacketed).Fogbank2 wrote:. . .
Looking into the ammunition I was not able to find any manufacturer that makes .45ACP wadcutter ammunition. I only found wadcutter ammunition for .38 caliber.
. . .
The lines have become blurred due to ammo requirement changes, but a ball gun should be considered a Service Pistol and wad gun a gun that meets the NRA rules including sights and trigger weight.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by Dr.Bill 12/24/2024, 5:13 pm
This is what we used to call wadcutter ammo:
Perhaps not a true wadcutter, but it makes pretty holes.
And 'ball' ammo was issued 230gr match ammo, full power loads.
Perhaps not a true wadcutter, but it makes pretty holes.
And 'ball' ammo was issued 230gr match ammo, full power loads.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by mbmshooter 12/26/2024, 5:35 pm
Federal GM ammo had been the \"gold standard" used by gunsmith for many years to test their builds. Some still use it while others have been using AA Elite or reloads.The 185gr. was typically used for wadgun builds and the 230gr for "hardball"/service pistol.In my opinion, recent Rules CMP changes have blurred the distinction between wadgun vs service pistol. A wadgun with iron sights and a 4lb trigger pull can be used as a service pistol.I'm thinking of the RRA with the combo rail. Simple get a second sear spring set for 4+lbs and swap bewteen Bullseye and Service pistol competitions.MikeDr.Bill wrote:This is what we used to call wadcutter ammo:
Perhaps not a true wadcutter, but it makes pretty holes.
And 'ball' ammo was issued 230gr match ammo, full power loads.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by Fogbank2 12/26/2024, 7:34 pm
A true Wadcutter
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by 96wa6 1/1/2025, 9:45 pm
I'm a little late to the party, but having lived through the time of "real" hardball and getting my Dist. badge with said "real" hardball, I can add a little to the puddle.
My gunsmith, coach and mentor was Larry Leutenegger, an ex-AMU chief pistolsmith of many years. I watched him as he built my first Wadgun and my only Hardball Gun. I was a little surprised when the Hardball gun cost more than the Wadgun.
His explanation as to the difference between the two, besides the sights and grip safety, was pretty simple. The Wadgun was a tight 1911. The Hardball gun was a VERY tight 1911. Reason being, when he was a shooter, then a 'smith, Hardball matches supplied the ammo. When your club registered to run an EIC match, the CMP sent your club ammo. As a shooter, you registered, paid the entry fee and when you got to your firing point, there was a box of 50 230-grain FMJ ammo waiting for you. Larry said he had shot everything from recent Match ammo from US manufacturers (rarely) to not-quite-current military surplus ammo (usual) to what looked like Korean War surplus ammo that was dug out of a trench. With that variance, 'Smiths had to make their guns accurately shoot the crappiest ammo that was deemed safe. Hence the VERY tight 1911.
When I shot for my Dist., it had to be .45 ACP 230-gr FMJ. And for that bullet to be accurate, it had to be moving along. I got my Dist badge with said ammo, but my shoulder paid the price. (Bad enough that I had to have some corrective surgery.)
Nowadays, I believe if your .45 wadgun has iron sights, it's legal for EIC. You can also shoot a 9. You can also shoot your Wad ammo in the match. At my last EIC match, I shot my wad ammo out of my Larry HB gun and won it. The old Hardball guns were and still are damned accurate with any ammo. My Larry Hardball gun is the last gun I'd ever let go of.
PS: Anyone selling their old-school HB 1911, drop me a line.
My gunsmith, coach and mentor was Larry Leutenegger, an ex-AMU chief pistolsmith of many years. I watched him as he built my first Wadgun and my only Hardball Gun. I was a little surprised when the Hardball gun cost more than the Wadgun.
His explanation as to the difference between the two, besides the sights and grip safety, was pretty simple. The Wadgun was a tight 1911. The Hardball gun was a VERY tight 1911. Reason being, when he was a shooter, then a 'smith, Hardball matches supplied the ammo. When your club registered to run an EIC match, the CMP sent your club ammo. As a shooter, you registered, paid the entry fee and when you got to your firing point, there was a box of 50 230-grain FMJ ammo waiting for you. Larry said he had shot everything from recent Match ammo from US manufacturers (rarely) to not-quite-current military surplus ammo (usual) to what looked like Korean War surplus ammo that was dug out of a trench. With that variance, 'Smiths had to make their guns accurately shoot the crappiest ammo that was deemed safe. Hence the VERY tight 1911.
When I shot for my Dist., it had to be .45 ACP 230-gr FMJ. And for that bullet to be accurate, it had to be moving along. I got my Dist badge with said ammo, but my shoulder paid the price. (Bad enough that I had to have some corrective surgery.)
Nowadays, I believe if your .45 wadgun has iron sights, it's legal for EIC. You can also shoot a 9. You can also shoot your Wad ammo in the match. At my last EIC match, I shot my wad ammo out of my Larry HB gun and won it. The old Hardball guns were and still are damned accurate with any ammo. My Larry Hardball gun is the last gun I'd ever let go of.
PS: Anyone selling their old-school HB 1911, drop me a line.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by Slamfire 1/2/2025, 4:18 pm
Real men shot this:
The greats that shot those amazing scores with rounds that kicked as hard as these must not have had nerve endings.
this is the latest and greatest.
The greats that shot those amazing scores with rounds that kicked as hard as these must not have had nerve endings.
this is the latest and greatest.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by 96wa6 1/2/2025, 6:07 pm
"The greats that shot those amazing scores with rounds that kicked as hard as these must not have had nerve endings."
I'm not a great but I also wasn't kidding when I said I had to have shoulder surgery from the kick of lots of practice with real hardball.
I'm not a great but I also wasn't kidding when I said I had to have shoulder surgery from the kick of lots of practice with real hardball.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by Colt711 1/6/2025, 6:44 pm
96wa6 wrote:"The greats that shot those amazing scores with rounds that kicked as hard as these must not have had nerve endings."
I'm not a great but I also wasn't kidding when I said I had to have shoulder surgery from the kick of lots of practice with real hardball.
Perhaps these discussions could be lessened if later medals had an asterisk stamped on them similiarly to Major League Base Balls handling when Babe Ruth's home run record was broken?
Ron Habegger
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by 96wa6 1/6/2025, 8:28 pm
We have a local curmudgeon (and NRA referee) who continues to demand that the Distinguished badges won under the new rules be colored pink. He also CALLS them "Pink Distinguished".
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by john bickar 1/6/2025, 8:35 pm
Colt711 wrote:96wa6 wrote:"The greats that shot those amazing scores with rounds that kicked as hard as these must not have had nerve endings."
I'm not a great but I also wasn't kidding when I said I had to have shoulder surgery from the kick of lots of practice with real hardball.
Perhaps these discussions could be lessened if later medals had an asterisk stamped on them similiarly to Major League Base Balls handling when Babe Ruth's home run record was broken?
Ron Habegger
Cough
1. Earned my Distinguished Pistol Shot badge with ammo issued on the line in the 1990s (1993)
2. Yeah, real hardball. I blew my elbow and shoulder out with it.
3. Subsequent medals have been earned within the strictures of the prevailing rules at the time.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by 96wa6 1/6/2025, 8:52 pm
John (Bicker): How tall were you and what did you weigh (ballpark will do) back then?
M.
M.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by Wobbley 1/6/2025, 8:58 pm
Colt711 wrote:96wa6 wrote:"The greats that shot those amazing scores with rounds that kicked as hard as these must not have had nerve endings."
I'm not a great but I also wasn't kidding when I said I had to have shoulder surgery from the kick of lots of practice with real hardball.
Perhaps these discussions could be lessened if later medals had an asterisk stamped on them similiarly to Major League Base Balls handling when Babe Ruth's home run record was broken?
Ron Habegger
I heard the same crap over in Highpower rifle regarding the changes from (in order): the adoption of the M1 Garand, the M14, Issuing M852, the takeover of the M16, allowing optical sights. No asterisks over these guys either. One of ours just got distinguished in rifle a couple of years ago under those new equipment rules. I bet his medal looks just like mine.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by Merick 1/6/2025, 9:19 pm
I havent heard of any purists holding a horse's reigns in their non shooting hand while firing a colt dragoon, so clearly some progress is acceptable to even the most obstinate.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by RoyDean 1/6/2025, 9:29 pm
JB wrote
"Yeah, real hardball. I blew my elbow and shoulder out with it."
As they used to say back in the day in many of the Colonies:-
Ah, those were the days, when men were men, and the sheep were worried!
"Yeah, real hardball. I blew my elbow and shoulder out with it."
As they used to say back in the day in many of the Colonies:-
Ah, those were the days, when men were men, and the sheep were worried!
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by JRV 1/6/2025, 10:32 pm
I’m looking forward to all the intelligent discourse the day approved “Service Pistols” start looking like modern service pistols… plastic 9mms with dots.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by Wobbley 1/6/2025, 11:07 pm
Oh the Polymer guns and dots are coming to Service Pistol. Just like optics came to Service Rifle.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by sharkdoctor 1/7/2025, 7:15 am
Gosh- I was a bit of a late-comer, shooting non-issue 230gr ball to leg and in the P100. CMP sold us Federal Gold Medal Match ($12 a box) at 855 fps, not any of that wimpy issue stuff at only 820 fps. I also shot a true service pistol, a Remington-Rand (WWII vintage) that is older than I am. What color should my badge be? 
It still takes a top performance to leg, and those who still do get the badge.
It still takes a top performance to leg, and those who still do get the badge.
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Re: Differences between Wad Pistol vs Hardball Pistol
by john bickar 1/7/2025, 10:12 am
96wa6 wrote:John (Bickar): How tall were you and what did you weigh (ballpark will do) back then?
M.
Probably about 5'10" 130lbs.
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