Changed weekly cleaning process for HS 107 Supermatic Citation/LSP barrel. Might be helping improve accuracy

Previously I used a 22 Carbon Cleaner to fill the barrel up with muzzle plugged resting face down on the bench being held in a vise. Then using a brush to scrub and large long industrial Q Tips to swab to clean. Checked Plunk Test.

Now I'm only using the industrial Q Tip from barrel breech face to just past chamber to remove residue. Checking with Plunk Test.
Continuing to use Q Tips to clean inside depressed magazines, magazine well, slide face and frame rails.

Since I use a drop of oil on top round of each loaded magazine the residue is loose in an oily film and easily wiped off with a Q Tip.

Had another good night of 288/ 100 TF and striving to continue. Rapid target slipped and cocked on the clip - threw  a 7. New coated glasses have definitely reduced Red Dot distortion.

I have a HS 107 Hamden 7 1/4" Trophy that I purchased new in 1971. I shot it quite a bit that year and then life got busy and it sat in the safe for 50 years. I have been using it in bullseye at our local  indoor range. As my eyes aren't getting any better (I'll be 79 next month) I just purchased the LSP aluma barrel and their Weaver style mount and will mount my Ultra dot Match dot on it. I noticed that their recommended cleaning is exactly what you are doing. I am excited to try this new setup as I have only been shooting open sights. What ammo have you found to work the best for you in this gun/barrel?

I've been using Aguila SV that I bought cases of about 5 years ago before COVID and the price increase. It's been super reliable. If I have an alibi it's usually caused by the gun or myself.

That said I don't shoot in a " Traditional" ( Normal for most) shooting stance due to a  RS wrist fusion with a titanium plate and 7 screws that still swells up.  Bruce Martindale helped me with my stance after sharing he has seen Army handicapped/wounded competitors on the Army Pistol team shoot in this or a modified manner of this. My ejection port is straight upwards. Yes it was awkward to start and I get a lot of questions/looks at matches. One regional match I explained my stance to the RO in advance and he assigned a member of their range to shoot next to me and watch for issues - which I thought was prudent.  No problems identified and I shot better than him at 25yards.

Takes a lot of practice and when I was developing what angles - I was able to shoot at home every day outside  in the summer time before Fall BE Leagues. 

I tried many different brands of 22s before ordering cases .

I know there is varying thoughts on using a drop of oil on rounds - For me it consistently works.  You'll have a barrel break in period too.

The other thing I've found is that I made longer Red Dot tube extensions out of Delrin plastic to keep the surrounding area dark and I focus better on just the center of red dot on center of black as I'm squeezing the trigger into the zone. Longer extensions also help keep the lenses of red dot clean.
I shoot 2 indoor leagues and it doesn't take long for red dots or spotting scopes to get dust and debris on them reducing clarity.
I brought a bottle of eye glass cleaning fluid to ranges with wipes to share with folks to keep equipment clean.

My eye glasses too before the match.

Last night I shot at our local home range which was only 10 minutes away and the team captain had gone early to start the furnace early so conditions were warm and comfortable in the farm house. All these factors make a difference for a good night.

Another of our team member who averages 260 shot a 286 which made it more fun.

After decades of shooting .22 and developing what I thought was a good cleaning process, I got a borescope and found out otherwise.  I spent a summer trying all sorts of stuff.  Here's the results of my research:

Have you REALLY Cleaned Your Chamber

Your stance reminds me of this although yours is reversed 180!

Doug,

I really don't think I cleaned the chamber area well but only make sure a loaded 22 cartridge will go in with no resistance by removing gross visual crud.

I don't have a borescope or measuring equipment small enough to measure actual bore diameter buildup or where the carbon ring is located beyond the chamber.

Maybe my LSP barrel has a long enough chamber / lead area throat before rifling starts [ or Aguila is short on length ] helping to minimize a restriction.

Wondering if using oil on top round of every magazine helps tp reduce or delay harder carbon buildup?

Honestly I do feel a "little" guilty of not doing a complete cleaning after every 35 round night, but it hasn't affected short term accuracy. I had been doing that previously and started to feel I was getting larger bullet impact spreads than it felt as I was shooting - another words unable to call my shots as I like to try and do. That's also why I like shooting the 5  shot Luck Shoot prior to out BE match to settle the barrel and make sure gun is functioning after coming out of gun box from vehicle travel. 5 shots certainly isn't warming a barrel up in temperature. And some of the old buildings we shoot in the temperatures when your station door is open - you can see your breath - it's winter cold at times. 

I grew up shooting 3 position NRA Match Rifle attaining Distinguished Expert in HS with a Winchester Model 52 that a neighbor graciously sold me when he saw me trying to compete with a Savage Model 29 pump which was a struggle. His words to me at the sale was make sure you clean the gun thoroughly every time used and keep it oiled. He was a great trap shooter in our club and his 3 sons didn't want to shoot rifle.  So cleaning was in grained - Hoppes No. 9 still love the smell .

As far as my LSP barrel accuracy testing of my limited chamber crud removal versus thorough cleaning - I don't have the equipment.  I would think the gun would have to be held in a Ransom Rest type setup and run "X Number" of rounds with my limited process versus the same against your process.
Even my previous process I rarely removed the barrel and did a proper from breech end thru to muzzle end brush push  before  unscrewing  brush to remove without dragging it back thru.  I do that at end of season. And I find that the barrel being attached back to the frame on barrel pin can change point of impact even with all surfaces cleaned. I'm Leary to do this unless I know I can get to the range and check it before a match.

I don't want to state - I'm doing it correctly - as there are many combinations of processes and chemicals to maintaining firearms. At this point in time this is working for me and my gun.

I can remember that back in the 1980's Breakfree CLP was my go to chemical for all my firearms cleaning and storage. When I worked at the Watervliet Arsenal we would get it in  1 gallon cans from the tool crib. I found over time that the components would separate out and can solidify on long term store firearms or precision measuring tools to the point that parts don't move .

If you are shooting regularly (like once a week or more), I don't think a full cleaning is really necessary, and can add wear.  I frequently go weeks between even light cleanings with no issues.  

Everyone has their own preferred solvents & cleaning process.  If you ask 2 shooters the best way to clean a pistol, you will usually get at least 3 answers...

If you are happy with your current process, that's great.  If you want to see if the extra soak will do any good, it's easy enough to test, assuming you have a good chamber brush like I described.  Clean your pistol the way you normally would.  Save the last patch.  Then, brush the chamber one last time and run a wet patch with your favorite CLP through the barrel.  Let it sit overnight.  Brush the chamber again, and run a patch through.  The vast majority of shooters will find significant extra fouling on the patch that comes out.  If you really want to be meticulous, use a new chamber brush, or hose it down with aerosol cleaner first so you aren't getting any grime from the brush back into the chamber.

I've always viewed oiling the top round in the magazine as a crutch.  I've never seen a .22 pistol that REQUIRES it to function well if the chamber is REALLY clean.  I do it occasionally in emergencies, or as a diagnostic tool.  You also need to be careful what you use.  I found that Rem Oil will deposit baked on crud, and quickly make things worse.  Pardini recommends using FP-10, so apparently that doesn't break down the way Rem Oil does.

As an example, after I used the borescope to make sure my chamber was spotless, I did a torture test on one of my Benellis.  It went almost 1100 rounds before it started messing up, and there was no sign of a drop in accuracy.

Speaking of accuracy, don't worry about it.  The Benellis have shallow rifling, and when lead builds up, they will start to keyhole.  Even with never running a brush through the bore, it usually takes about 10,000 rounds or more to see that, and the holes will still be "on call" until it gets really bad.  That's when I get out some Rimfire Blend, and follow their cleaning process, which includes using a .22 brush.  Before I discovered Rimfire Blend, I used to use KleenBore "Lead Away" patches, which also work well.

More guns have been ruined by excessive or improper cleaning than by any other means.  The Eley customer range rep who shot with us at Camp Perry would get agitated on the topic of cleaning BUT he was emphatic that the worst thing to do was fire a shot through a cold dirty bore. 

I use an oiled pull through swab ( on an orange plastic cable) before and after shooting. It also serves as an ECI. Most 22 barrels are soft, treat them gently. 45 barrels are hard and can take more forceful cleaning methods. I’ll update the cleaning section in my book soon to note the distinction.

I’ll clean 22s rarely but after they start to malfunction . The chamber needs much more attention and I for one find oiling the shells keeps deposits soft and easier to remove.

The subject can approach that of religion and politics

Bruce,

I would suggest to add photos and/or links to the products you use or recommend .  Should be helpful. 

I'm going to continue using a drop of Lucas Extreme Duty Gun Oil: -38F to 400F as I don't always have ideal shooting temperatures or conditions especially with my grip hold with ejection port straight upwards.  I doubt gun designers planned for this position. 

Thanks -- Gus 

Doug,

Thanks for the follow up info..  I use Bore Blend too.

Lucas Extreme Gun Oil: -38F to 400F.  Given that my grip hold has the ejection port straight up I believe the drop of this oil helps prevent alibis. I've had jams without it.

Too bad ammunition and firearm manufactures don't follow and contribute to this forum as their responses would be an interesting addition.

Appreciate your responses - Thank you 

Oils..man there’s a ton of those and there’s no way for me to test other than use’em and see. I used to mix 30% slick 50 with balance 10 wt non detergent motor oil. Then there was Marvel Mystery and mixed with 50% I forget…either stp or oil.  The latest for me is simply Mobil 1 synthetic 0w-20. Awesome stuff. I’ll add a pic of the bore swab

Bore wipes from swab-its.com

For the college team I work with, I use the Swab-Its to moth-ball some of our air guns over the summer.  Even with air guns, they tend to get grubby pretty quickly.  You can clean them with a solvent like alcohol, but I prefer patches I can just toss.  For the .22's, there's no way we could trust most of the students with cleaning rods.  We use "Patch Worm" style pull-through cords:

https://patchworm.com/product/patchworm-pfk-pistol-length/

We only need a single caliber, and they wanted ~$10 each for full multi-caliber kits.  We keep one in every pistol case, and use them on the firing line & for general cleaning, and that was going to get expensive.  I made up about 75 myself.  I machined appropriate sized buttons & stuck them on weed-whacker cord.  If you are careful, you can just melt a button on the end of the cord with a small torch, but getting the size just right is tricky.

I still use a bent 25 caliber bore brush for the chamber and a pull through line made from a length of line trimmer with a ball melted on one end and the other end cut to a very sharp angle to pierce the patches. I use Hoppes Elite solvent (M Pro 7 seems to be the same). BTW, love the Gil Hebard Guns screw driver, Bruce. I have a couple of them.

gwhite wrote:After decades of shooting .22 and developing what I thought was a good cleaning process, I got a borescope and found out otherwise.  I spent a summer trying all sorts of stuff.  Here's the results of my research:

Have you REALLY Cleaned Your Chamber

For those of you still in doubt, I did an experiment last night.  I used a bronze chamber brush and a pull-through with patches to clean my MatchGun MG2, which had ~ 400 rounds through it since the last bath.   I kept going until there was only a faint hint of fouling on the patches coming out.  I saved the last patch, and then ran a patch wetted with FP10 CLP though the bore.

I let it sit overnight, used a clean chamber brush to scrub the chamber again, and pulled a patch  through.  Here are the results:



I think the vast majority of shooters would look at the first patch and conclude that their pistol was clean.  For many years, I certainly would have.  After the first patch this morning, it took another ~ 10 patches to get them back to what the last patch looked like last night.  

The crud I removed after a good soak will slowly build up over years, and eventually can cause all sorts of malfunctions.  

The secret is the soak.  Even a few hours will help, but overnight is best.  Beyond that, and I think the CLP evaporates enough that it's no longer working, and if you wait too long, the crud may re-solidify.

I think this a good discussion and not arguing on your cleaning method and results.

I believe it's important to have a clean chamber with a Plunk Test check to 100% depth of the brand cartridge being used before each match for reliability.

I just want to clarify your process from last night:

1. Did you use a bent chamber brush and only did the chamber area or did you push a brush all the way out the muzzle?

2. At the 400 rounds mark did you feel the gun was getting less accurate?

Thanks for the info....

I used a .22 caliber Tipton "Best" rifle brush, bent at 90 degrees, just on the chamber.  The bore was only cleaned with patches, pulled through with a "Patch Worm" style device.  I never use a bore brush unless I need to deal with keyholing (see below).

I only cleaned the pistol to ensure it continues to function well.  I've never seen a significant drop in accuracy from a dirty bore, even after 1100 rounds between cleanings.  I'm old & a bit shaky now, but on a good day I can shoot in the mid-90's on a 50 foot slow fire target, and my shots are "on call".

A lot depends on the rifling design.  I shot Benellis for many years, and the college team I help coach has 22 of them.  They have shallow rifling, and after 10 to 15 thousand rounds, they will begin to keyhole.  Even then, the shots will still be "on-call," but the scorers don't like the funny holes...   I have put at least a hundred thousand rounds through a couple High Standard Victors, and I've never had a keyholing or accuracy issue.  I haven't checked, but I'm betting the High Standards have deeper rifling than the Benellis.

If I start to suspect the bore needs more than my usual cleaning (like when a Benelli keyholes), I use Bore Tech Rimfire Blend, following their instructions.  That does require the use of a bore brush.  Now that I'm shooting MatchGun MG2's and I let my barrels soak a bit when cleaning, I've never seen an issue with accuracy.  Between my wife & me, we have three MG2's, with a total of almost 40K rounds.

For me, the issue of “dirty” becomes defined not by inaccuracy but an issue of malfunctions. 

Love the plunk test…it showed my 1962 High Standard had some chamber crud that actually cost me a State Championship by not allowing full slide seating by 1/4”.

The 'plunk test' is good, but it's hard to do on the line with some pistols without actual disassembly.  It not too bad on open top pistols like older High Standards, and Benellis are also trivial.  The Model 41's and HS Victors are a bit tricky, as are Pardinis.  MatchGuns are pretty much impossible.  I've salvaged a lot of matches for my students & other shooters by using the right angle brush and a pull-through on the line.  With a MatchGun, you want to make sure it's good & clean in advance.