25 yard vs 50 yard accuracy test idea

I don't know if anyone has tried this and I have not had the time to do this.  I have seen comments that this gun or that ammo are great at 25 yards but not so good at 50 yards.  My thought is that testing at 50 yards is probably a lot harder than some of us realize.  I know for me just shooting at 50 yards is a lot tougher    I thought it might be interesting to set up a target at 25 yards and then set up a target directly behind it at 50 yards and see what the difference in group sizes would be.  I have always wondered about the comments that say "my gun or ammo is an X ring load at 25 yards but is terrible at 50 yards"  Anyway if anybody has tried this I would love to hear how it turned out.  

Thanks

Someone did that, and posted the targets, but I don't remember who, or what to search for...

there is a reason that on many forums that have reloading sections, youll here people talk about their 25 yard load, AND then talk about there seperate 50 yard load. 

There are many not so great online magazines that deal with shooting and reloading that do indeed show different powder charges for different ranges. I believe the older adage was

start with the starting charge, and work up to a load that works at 35. Then start increasing powder to get results at 50. 

Have seen SOME load data posted that shows up to a whole grain difference in powder charge between 20/25 yards and 50.

Most reloading manuals don’t even show the most accurate bullseye loads!
Never understood that.

Alliant (Hercules) would tell you ‘ let us know how it works!’ When going below minimum, or using shotgun powders like Claydot, or Red Dot.

Thanks for the responses, I don't doubt that loads can be tuned for both 25 yard and 50 yard accuracy and that most of the 50 yard loads are a bit hotter.  But with testing any variable introduce can be a factor and looking at a target at 25 yards and at 50 yards is a variable.  I think I need to try the experiment that I am suggesting and see what happens.  I guess the other question would be is the 50 yard specific load more accurate than the 25 yard load but the additional accuracy is not worth the trade off in recoil.  Fun stuff.

troystaten wrote:Thanks for the responses, I don't doubt that loads can be tuned for both 25 yard and 50 yard accuracy and that most of the 50 yard loads are a bit hotter.  But with testing any variable introduce can be a factor and looking at a target at 25 yards and at 50 yards is a variable.  I think I need to try the experiment that I am suggesting and see what happens.  I guess the other question would be is the 50 yard specific load more accurate than the 25 yard load but the additional accuracy is not worth the trade off in recoil.  Fun stuff.

An old saying that I remember is "Bubblegum and talcum powder will group at 25 yards!"

troystaten wrote:. . .  I guess the other question would be is the 50 yard specific load more accurate than the 25 yard load but the additional accuracy is not worth the trade off in recoil.  Fun stuff.

Yes. You've discovered the paradox.
The reason why most use a heavier bullet at 50 is that they are more resistant to environmental factors over time, e.g. side wind and air resistance. Otherwise my 25 yard bullets do very well at 50 in perfect conditions. 
Or, as you have pointed out, it could rather be viewed as, "why do I need to shoot my most accurate/expensive/recoil-heavy load when less is good enough at 25."  You're not concerned about recoil at 50.
While you may find some interesting results from your experiment, I would say the only thing it's really helpful for is having a confidence load if you forget your box of 50-yd ammo. There are 2 different games here and you'll need to load for each, yet have your gun function for both.

Yes it difficult for most of us to shoot at 50yds.  In the past I made a lot of cast bullets and did a lot of testing 45's at 50 yds for customers who's 25 yds loads would not shoot at 50.  There is a definite difference at 50yds.  The bullet load and gun must work together to produce good groups.  Some bullets simply will not give good 50yd accuracy

Hi All,

My experience is that EVERYTHING groups well at 25 yards. The old timers at the range tell of stories where some guy at Perry did a test on 45 bullets at 25 yards.  He cut tips off bullets, dented them, drilled them, etc.... and there was not much of a difference in accuracy at 25 yards.  Where is really showed up is at 50 yards.

Best,

Joe

lanjo wrote:Hi All,

My experience is that EVERYTHING groups well at 25 yards. The old timers at the range tell of stories where some guy at Perry did a test on 45 bullets at 25 yards.  He cut tips off bullets, dented them, drilled them, etc.... and there was not much of a difference in accuracy at 25 yards.  Where is really showed up is at 50 yards.

Best,

Joe

I wish I had that luck and experience. I’ve ladder tested loads that wouldn’t hold 10-ring off bags at 25 and loads that shot nearly a half-inch off bags from the same gun. Some combinations of excellent bullets and excellent powders simply do not work.

Testing at 50 is mandatory for everything except the old standby loads. A 200gr LSWC of good make moving at 750-770 fps is not going to “fall apart” at 50 yards. Zero swaged or a high quality HG #68 duplicate over 3.8 Clays/4.0 BE, those sorts of loads. If your gun shoots it into an inch at 25, it will be somewhere in 2-3” at 50, barring a casting error in a bullet or a bridged powder throw.

Then there’s sadistics, statistics and luck. One good group at any distance may mean nothing

Many years ago I did exactly that. What i found was that a perfectly round group at 25 yds would approximately double in size at 50. If a flyer was beginning to move out of the group at 25 , the group size was probably 3-4 times the size at 50. If a distinct flyer was apparent at 25 , it was into orbit at 50 , probably 5x or more the group size at 25. Sorry i don't have precise data , but like I said , it was a long time ago.

lanjo wrote:Hi All,

My experience is that EVERYTHING groups well at 25 yards. The old timers at the range tell of stories where some guy at Perry did a test on 45 bullets at 25 yards.  He cut tips off bullets, dented them, drilled them, etc.... and there was not much of a difference in accuracy at 25 yards.  Where is really showed up is at 50 yards.

Best,

Joe

Agreed, my practice ammo for 25 yds is mixed range brass + "Quality" 200 gr HBSWC that a friend gave me (he didn't shoot bullseye) over 3.5-3.7 gr BE depending on the weather.  They group fantastic even though the surface of every bullet has very obvious imperfections.  I haven't shot them at 50 yds but am sure they wouldn't hold the black even with a 50 yd powder charge.

I have accidentally done the as the OP has inquired shooting threw 25 to a target at 50, It was interesting the general group shape was the same, but obviously larger at 50. The 3d composite of the trajectory of a group of shots can be thought as conical shape, if you can assume equal vertical and horizontal error, an estimate of 2 1/2-3x increase of group size can reasonably be expected at 50.

That said don't get overly caught up in load development, find something that works and stick with it as long as your supply chain allows. Most people won't be able to easily notice a load that groups 1.5" vs 2.5" at 50, for most if it groups roughly sub 3" you are golden.

Well I tried this today and I ran into a problems, one I have not shot off sandbags since before covid and I was a disaster.  I did get one decent group at 25 yards and the group at 50 yards was about double what the same group was at 50 yards.  I know that to gain any really info I would have to practice shooting from bags quite a bit before I figured out any useful info.  As always thank you to all the people on this forum who put so much work into our pastime.

No matter what the group size is, measure it and see how they compare at the two distances. All that matters is that all the shots are on both targets. Then let the numbers speak for themselves. And compare the pattern/distribution to see if they match.

Keep in mind that bullets do not shoot flat and especially 45acp. So as a bullet follows a ballistic path so there is error is on the way up and on the way down. 

The weirdest bullet is 45acp because it definitely has a binomial distribution. Certain lower power loads like 3.5 BE and a 200gn 801 will group almost as good as 3.9 BE. 

All bullets can have more error at 50 than 25 yards. Virtually any 22lr pistol will group under an inch at 25 and yet only a very good gun can do under an inch at 50. In fact a 22lr will have a greater change on a % basis than well made 45acp.

45s are flatter shooting than you might think. I found this out by using Hornady’s Ballistics Web app. Using the ballistics of their 185 JHP and their 200 SWC as bullets and at typical “Bullseye” velocities of 775 fps, I found that if you zero tge gun at 40 yards, the impacts at 50 are centered at 1 inch below the center or about the “X-Ring” line. Conversely the impacts at 25 yards are almost the same distance above tge center. So, if your ammo/gun shoots an “X-ring” sized group at 25 any shot outside the 10 ring at 25 is on you. Unless something is really wrong in your ammo, a 2 inch or X ring gun at 25 should at least hold the 10 ring at 50. This means that all good shots should be in the 10 or mid 9-ring. So my guns are zeroed at 25 yards with the center of impact an inch high. I check them at 50 off a rest but I need magnification to get good consistent breaks. So far, my results are promising.

Thanks Wobbley, I assume anything outside of the 10 ring at 25 yards is always because of the jerk pulling the trigger.  Unfortunately I don't shoot enough but it is still fun trying.

This has been examined for 22lr by firing at 50 and 100 yd or meters on electronic targets in a tunnel/indoors so that the bullets have no contact with anything that might influence trajectory.  I think the consensus is that the trajectory is somewhat trumpet bell shaped- that is, precision (group size) is 2.5-3x as distance doubles, with potentially some curve in trajectory due to instability.  With projectiles that have the BC of a brick, e.g. 22lr an 45 pistol bullets, group size increases with distance.  Test at 50 yd, and 25 will look a lot better!  Off a box, with a dot, I can hold better than 1.5" with a known entity, that is 22lr match pistol with match ammo, so testing needs are minimal.

Here’s a post from two years ago about this exact style of shooting: https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t21781-45acp-zero-185-jhp-4-2-n310-test-targets-25y-50y

Something that is almost never mentioned is bullet stability. My 148 LWC's were stable at 25 yards, and were tumbling at 50 yards. The thing is, no one is telling us what bullets are stable all the way out, at all velocities, assuming that any are. In fact, the whole topic is ignored, everyone assumes all bullets are always stable at all distances at all velocities.

I don't believe that. To find out what is going on at distance, you have to shoot at distance.

I would agree with Slamfire. Especially when talking about 38 WC.

Slamfire wrote:Something that is almost never mentioned is bullet stability. My 148 LWC's were stable at 25 yards, and were tumbling at 50 yards. The thing is, no one is telling us what bullets are stable all the way out, at all velocities, assuming that any are. In fact, the whole topic is ignored, everyone assumes all bullets are always stable at all distances at all velocities.

I don't believe that. To find out what is going on at distance, you have to shoot at distance.

Greetings,

Actually, the 38 HBWC is designated as "Dynamically Stable = NO"

However, the article does not specifically address LWC bullets.

I did show the 32 ACP Round Nose = Not Stable.

Sadly, they did not test the Hornady 60 and 85 grain 0.312" XTP bullets.

For you 9mm fans, the 124 grain Round Nose IS STABLE.

Read the entire document.

A lot of valuable data captured in one stop.

Cheers,

David,  RCB

fc60 wrote:Actually, the 38 HBWC is designated as "Dynamically Stable = NO"

However, the article does not specifically address LWC bullets.

David,  RCB

That was interesting. The article states:

  The maximum yaw angle increases approximately by a factor of three, from a value of five degrees at the muzzle to 15° after a traveling distance of 8000 calibers (240 feet =73 m).

In my 38 Special  K38, my 148 LWC 2.7 grs Bullseye loads were tumbling at 50 yards, a bit sooner than 73 meters. What bullet did PPC or Bullseye shooters use at 50 yards, and what was the desired velocity?