wadcutter brass issue

If all the big names sell 38 wadcutter ammunition, why are the big names NOT using wadcutter  brass?

factory photos dont show cannelure, retailer photos dont. SO care to explain

Well, if you presume that factories made “wadcutter brass” at all, ever, it may be that they no longer make “Wadcutter brass”. A bit of history of the cartridge may shed some light. Up until the early 1970s there was no “+P” loadings if 38 Special. Most of the loadings were 158 Gr RNL or 148 HBWC. If you do a dimensional check of a 38 Special case there is a straight cylindrical tube of some length which varies between manufacturers somewhat and whether or not the case is marked “+P+ or not. From my dimensional checking of Major US Manufacturers of their brass (Winchester, Remington, Federal, etc) they seem to have one 38 Special (non +P) case used for all 38 loadings. This makes sense as the companies make ammunition in such quantity that making a different case for wadcutter ammo is a production error in waiting. What they did do is usually run two cannelures on the brass and, I believe, that’s where the cotton of special brass was made and used. The two callelures were placed in the round AFTER the bullet was seated. These were used to make the round shoot better as there is some evidence that the companies adjusted the ignition of wadcutter ammunition by using bullet pull. There is a limit on adjusting bullet pull by mouth crimp.

I have no idea where you find 38WC ammo being sold by "all the big names", and would appreciate if you post links to such sales.

Otherwise, I can only find three offerings from well known companies, Fiocchi, Sellier & Beloit and Magtech.  Two of the latter do show cannelurs on their brass, while former doesn't.  However, TMBK, Fiocchi brass is engraved (and TMBK, it is only such brass) with 38 Wad Cutter as a head stamp.  AFAIK, Double Tap, HSM, Atlanta Arms and Zero use Starline cases for their "new" ammo, which isn't specific to loading full wadcutter bullets, and whatever 38 SPL brass they get for their reloads.  And that brings up topic of usability of brass cases for loading 38 WC ammo, as well as a need for cannelures.  With that, you may want to search this forum as there was a lot of written on the subject.  The short synopsis is that 38WC bullets with OD greater than 0.358" and OAL greater than 0.615" do require brass with internal tapering starting below the above mentioned OAL mark.  There was also research done by outside paid vendor to highlight benefits of the cannelures.  You can also find a post related to that here.  I personally don't see any benefits of the cannelures, especially when it comes to reloading ammo in previously fired cases that have single or double cannelures.  

All the above is IMO, of course!

AP

The presence or absence of cannelure(s) does not in itself define wadcutter brass. What matters is the internal tapering, such that the skirt will not be compressed when the bullet is seated flush. Also, how the brass is sized matters. This is explained at the link below. That author used Starline brass.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/new-38special-wadcutter-powder/498967

Graf's sells .38 Spl. Prvi Partisan brass with two variations. One for wadcutters. They're not marked any differently, but we bought a mess of the wadcutter brass and it is thin further down the case than the PPU cases we generated by shooting their 158gr. LRN ammo. 

I haven't yet measured the wall thickness, I just know there's no pesky bulge generated on the "WC brass" when using my homemade WC expander. Don't know if any of my ball mics will reach that deep. BTW, no cannelure on either variety. 

Most of my other WC brass is 1960s and '70s vintage W-W Super. Some of it is still factory loaded...

S148 wrote:The presence or absence of cannelure(s) does not in itself define wadcutter brass. What matters is the internal tapering, such that the skirt will not be compressed when the bullet is seated flush.  Also, how the brass is sized matters.  This is explained at the link below. That author used Starline brass.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/new-38special-wadcutter-powder/498967

I took a brief look at that article and noted that he used a .38 Super die to resize the brass.  Most interesting as I had never seen that anywhere else. Thanks for the link.

I have to throw this out there one time. I have zero bulges in my 38 brass and I don't sort anything. I'm probably going to get rotten tomatoes thrown at me for saying that but its true. I size with Lee 38 special dies, seat and then roll crimp. No bulge. I have my so called match brass (starline) separate  and everything else mixed up. I think the reason why is my choice of bullet. I only use Magnus/Zero HBWC. The skirts are so soft (pure lead) and the hollow base void for it to move into puts no strain on the case walls. After ignition the skirts still expand for full contact in the barrel and ammo works great. That's just my .02 cents worth. This is just my opinion YMMV.

LEN

14S&W wrote:I took a brief look at that article and noted that he used a .38 Super die to resize the brass.  Most interesting as I had never seen that anywhere else. Thanks for the link.

To set record straight - on more than one occasion it was posted on this forum by FC60 and long predating Dr. Brad Miller's article suggestion to use 38 Super sizing die for sizing 38 WC cases.  

I also want to point out that this is a work around in order to avoid procuring custom sized die for 38WC akin to using sizing dies for 45 Colt or 454 Casul for sizing 45 ACP cases for cast / coated bullets with 0.452"+ ODs.

I want to mention that using fireformed Starline cases for loading HBWC with OD larget than 0.358" (i.e. Remington) is a hit and miss proposition.  It might work for semi-autos provided cases are re-used in the same firearm they were fired up originally.  However it would be problematic using in revolvers with variations in IDs of charging holes or across multiple semi-autos.  In each case testing is a must.

Lastly, with all due respect, and once again, for the purpose of our "game", testing at 25 yards isn't indicative of ammo accuracy.  It is fine for the purpose of the referenced article in respect of testing usability of different powders (and IMO W244 deserves more testing, and I surely will get on it in due time).  However, and I'm sure it was already said by somebody and I'm just re-phrasing / restating that winning each 900 match (and ultimately 2700) happens on Short line, however losing it takes place on Long line.  That's why testing at 50Y is a must!

AP

PhotoEscape wrote:

14S&W wrote:I took a brief look at that article and noted that he used a .38 Super die to resize the brass.  Most interesting as I had never seen that anywhere else. Thanks for the link.

To set record straight - on more than one occasion it was posted on this forum by FC60 and long predating Dr. Brad Miller's article suggestion to use 38 Super sizing die for sizing 38 WC cases.  

I also want to point out that this is a work around in order to avoid procuring custom sized die for 38WC akin to using sizing dies for 45 Colt or 454 Casul for sizing 45 ACP cases for cast / coated bullets with 0.452"+ ODs.

I want to mention that using fireformed Starline cases for loading HBWC with OD larget than 0.358" (i.e. Remington) is a hit and miss proposition.  It might work for semi-autos provided cases are re-used in the same firearm they were fired up originally.  However it would be problematic using in revolvers with variations in IDs of charging holes or across multiple semi-autos.  In each case testing is a must.

Lastly, with all due respect, and once again, for the purpose of our "game", testing at 25 yards isn't indicative of ammo accuracy.  It is fine for the purpose of the referenced article in respect of testing usability of different powders (and IMO W244 deserves more testing, and I surely will get on it in due time).  However, and I'm sure it was already said by somebody and I'm just re-phrasing / restating that winning each 900 match (and ultimately 2700) happens on Short line, however losing it takes place on Long line.  That's why testing at 50Y is a must!

AP

and getting components that work is the issue.

as much as it is sad,,, i truly disbelieve the masses who like to claim they can take 6 random pieces of brass they found on the floor of the local range, run it through their reloading system, and be able to put all six shots into a ragged hole at 50 yards have actually done it. 

I still remember the gun articles claiming 10" at 10 yards with 3,000$ "combat" 1911s as "exceptional accuracy".

I'm really trying for a rotten tomato. The quest for perfection for perfect pistol ammo is overrated. Training with accurate pistols and working on fundamentals will bring your scores up. Some interesting observations. You can shoot 5 8s and 5 9s in slow fire  (every stage) and still shoot Master scores. You can shoot 3 8s and 2 9s in slow fire and still shoot high master scores. Actually the High Masters would probably come closer to cleaning all the timed fire targets but the math is the same. I trust my ammo and pistols to hit where I was aiming. A consistant 5" group at 50yds is a goal worth shooting for.

LenV wrote:I'm really trying for a rotten tomato. The quest for perfection for perfect pistol ammo is overrated. Training with accurate pistols and working on fundamentals will bring your scores up. Some interesting observations. You can shoot 5 8s and 5 9s in slow fire  (every stage) and still shoot Master scores. You can shoot 3 8s and 2 9s in slow fire and still shoot high master scores. Actually the High Masters would probably come closer to cleaning all the timed fire targets but the math is the same. I trust my ammo and pistols to hit where I was aiming. A consistant 5" group at 50yds is a goal worth shooting for.

I will second Len on this. Clean the shortline then watch how high your agg scores become. A humble 85 average long line with a clean short line is master. You win on the long line, but it is far easier to loose on the shortline. Clean the short line.

Also if you want super accurate 38spl ammo, HBWC is not my first choice. You are far better off with a quality JHP. HBWC ballistics quite frankly suck, and they take more effort to load. “But my model 52..” yeah few matches are won with one, not saying it can’t be done as has, but it is more due to the effort of the shooter than the inherent goodness of the gun. Don’t overlook good ammo on the quest for perfect ammo when you don’t have the skillset to utilize it.