Equipment guidance for Pistol (Starting Out)

Hope everyone had a great holiday season. I just shot my first indoor bullseye match and looking at using 2025 to seriously pursue getting better at this discipline (plus shooting indoors during winter is great).

I have the following questions and appreciate any guidance. My goal outside of improving is to perform well at Pistol matches, specifically EIC matches. I'm focusing on Pistol for now and at the match I used a borrowed 22lr conversion and a 45 I have that fits for service pistol, centerfire, and 45. 

I shot the match with what I have for the experience (fun) and to determine what I should get. My background is action shooting in Steel Challenge, USPSA, IDPA, and some multi-gun but I'm looking at dedicated equipment for bullseye (pistol). 

Looking for input on the following (Looking for entry-mid level equipment that scales with my current). 2handed with a red dot pistol I can pull high 90s on a B-8 at 25yds, I haven't shot a red dot gun bullseye stance/one handed yet but with an iron sight centerfire gun I can do mid 70-ish (I just need more reps and sets). 

22lr Pistol 
- Right now I have a Ruger MkIV LITE for another game but pondering a Ruger MkIV Target and a ton of ammunition and practice (I'm not at the Pardini level yet). I know 22lr can be very finicky but I'm putting a premium on reliability. 

Centerfire Pistol
- Most likely a 1911 variant that can work for service pistol, centerfire, and 45. Looking hard at a Rock River Arms and maybe even a Les Baer. Open to 9mm options as well 

Reading 
- I've already read "With Winning in Mind", "The Inner Game of Tennis", and have done a Mental Management program that has helped in other games. Bullseye specific I'm reading the AMU Marksmanship Guide and any bullseye centric book recommendations are appreciated. 

Appreciate the guidance and also shout out to NukeMMC and a couple other Navy folks for helping me out.

If you have already upgraded the trigger in your existing MKIV then look at getting a target upper for it. Buy a case of CCI SV and shoot the heck out of it.

Shoot equipment that makes you want to shoot. 

Here are my recommendations:

22 for the most part doesn't matter, lots of good options. A Ruger mark is a good solid option. Lots of people like 1911 22 conversions (such as a Marvel or a Nelson), if going this route I would suggest a dedicated lower. 

CF/45-I would recommend a 1911 set up as a service pistol in 45 if you want to pursue distinguished badge. Otherwise a 1911 wadgun (dot gun) for both CF and 45. I would not recommend shooting a dedicated CF caliber unless you have a good reason.

It is very easy to acquire a large amount of equipment for this game, which if that is your thing, great. But their also is something to be said about simplicity. 

Here is what I "typically" use but I have some (probably too many) options. 
2700/1800 Guns
22) Nelson Conversion with an aimpoint 9000 on a dedicated lower
CF/45) 1911 Wadgun with an aimpoint 9000
EIC guns
22 EIC- Nelson conversion with 6" sight rib/barrel
Service Pistol- 9mm 1911 or 45 1911 (depends on the day)
DR/Service Revolver- Smith 586 or Smith 14

I will also shoot 2700/1800 matches with my EIC guns too.

Washed Up Newbie wrote:If you have already upgraded the trigger in your existing MKIV then look at getting a target upper for it. Buy a case of CCI SV and shoot the heck out of it.

My existing MkIV is made for Steel Challenge and removing the compensator made it CMP legal. I'm going to go with a completely different gun for bullseye but if the existing MkIV it could possibly be a backup gun. 

Already got a case of Eley 22lr to burn through to get better.

chiz1180 wrote:Shoot equipment that makes you want to shoot. 

Here are my recommendations:

22 for the most part doesn't matter, lots of good options. A Ruger mark is a good solid option. Lots of people like 1911 22 conversions (such as a Marvel or a Nelson), if going this route I would suggest a dedicated lower. 

CF/45-I would recommend a 1911 set up as a service pistol in 45 if you want to pursue distinguished badge. Otherwise a 1911 wadgun (dot gun) for both CF and 45. I would not recommend shooting a dedicated CF caliber unless you have a good reason.

It is very easy to acquire a large amount of equipment for this game, which if that is your thing, great. But their also is something to be said about simplicity. 

Here is what I "typically" use but I have some (probably too many) options. 
2700/1800 Guns
22) Nelson Conversion with an aimpoint 9000 on a dedicated lower
CF/45) 1911 Wadgun with an aimpoint 9000
EIC guns
22 EIC- Nelson conversion with 6" sight rib/barrel
Service Pistol- 9mm 1911 or 45 1911 (depends on the day)
DR/Service Revolver- Smith 586 or Smith 14

I will also shoot 2700/1800 matches with my EIC guns too.

Thank you for the input and I love the breakdown of your 2700/1800 Guns. I'll likely go with the EIC gun recommendations for now to get proficient. And yes on easily getting more equipment for the game (Stares at safe full of 2011's).

If it was me starting out. I’d shoot the 22 you have until you get your Centerfire pistol. For your first Centerfire, you could buy a used optic sighted 1911 in 45. But I think you’d be better served by buying a good used (or new) Springfield Armory “Loaded” precision model. This is the successor to the Springfield Armory Range Officer which is what was generally accepted as a good entry gun.

https://www.springfield-armory.com/1911-series-handguns/1911-trp-handguns/1911-loaded-target-45-acp-handgun-stainless-ca-compliant/?spec-sheet

After you shoot with that for a season then look for a purpose built wadgun. At that point you coukd upgrade your 22.

I'd recommend the Marine Corps Manual.

I've not gone through it myself front-to-back (I made MA/2600 before I even learned of its existence), but a common refrain that I ask people is, "what step of the Marine Corps Manual are you stuck on?"

I often get crickets on that question.

Once you have worked through that book and completed it, maybe I can help you. I think it's a reasonable approach to learning the fundamentals.

My dad used to say, "I can't help you until you break 285." I'm kinda the same.

Wobbley wrote:If it was me starting out.  I’d shoot the 22 you have until you get your Centerfire pistol.  For your first Centerfire, you could buy a used optic sighted 1911 in 45.  But I think you’d be better served by buying a good used (or new) Springfield Armory “Loaded” precision model.  This is the successor to the Springfield Armory Range Officer which is what was generally accepted as a good entry gun.  



After you shoot with that for a season then look for a purpose built wadgun.  At that point you coukd upgrade your 22.  

Thank you and shooting the 22 until I get my centerfire is what I'm leaning towards. I am circling and waiting for a right/good deal for a centerfire and in the meantime getting my bearings and fundamentals down.

john bickar wrote:I'd recommend the Marine Corps Manual

I've not gone through it myself front-to-back (I made MA/2600 before I even learned of its existence), but a common refrain that I ask people is, "what step of the Marine Corps Manual are you stuck on?"

I often get crickets on that question.

Once you have worked through that book and completed it, maybe I can help you. I think it's a reasonable approach to learning the fundamentals.

My dad used to say, "I can't help you until you break 285." I'm kinda the same.

Thank you for the PDF and can't wait to get into it!

Some time back, I shot this with the pictured Ruger Mk2. 

Both shots out were called.  We wont talk about one of them.

About the same time I shot this with 208s and Ultradot

Again all shots were called.

Then there is this 5 shot group at 25.  Arm rested.  ARM not gun.


My point is that the Ruger can do it as well as the Hammerli. 

Now a story of an uncluttered mind.  My kid at about 14-15 years old, watched me shoot the Hammerli and listened to my spiel.  Then we loaded 5 for kid.  First time ever shooting, Kid did everything right at 25 yds.  Five sustained shots in a group you could cover with a quarter.  Kid puts gun down and says 'What's so hard about that?'

I recommend you buy the most accurate pistols you can afford! When Adam started shooting I put the most accurate pistols and best ammo in his hands. Only thing needed for him to shoot great scores was to learn how! Marine manual is a good way to learn. Avoid bad advise! At every club there is the worst shooter that knows how to shoot a perfect score and willing to tell others how to do it! Yet he can't and has a lot of excuses why! Talk only to high masters or masters, if you are at a match talk to the best there is but wait until they have time to talk! Avoid buying some super accurate pistol build by an unknown smith! There are quite a few that say they can build a tack driver but haven't a clue how and don't! Don't bother with center fire lower caliber pistols, they add cost, the 45acp is the only center fire pistol you should have! A conversion is a good way to keep the one gun in your hand, you can convert your 45acp to .22LR, later if funds are available get a dedicated frame for it. A decent gun box and good spotting scope are also items needed.

Jack H wrote:uncluttered mind

Well there you have it.

That's some great shooting and I usually joke around if I have a not so great shot with the whole "Oh, cold bore" or "The sun was in my eyes, that glare is nasty" (In an indoor range). 

Good to know with the right combo and shooter the Rugers can hold their own.

Nothing wrong with a Ruger! Most .22LR pistols will shoot a great group at 50 yards! Problem is that it's different from the 1911! Adams .22 while in the AMU was a 208 that looked like a 1911 at a quick glance. It had 1911 grips and grip angle was the same. He had one built but is working with a Nelson conversion now and was using a Marvel before retiring from Army.
 Olympic shooter only shoot one type match, Free Pistols shooters don't shoot other styles or the reverse. They learn to shoot one gun great!

Froneck wrote: Olympic shooter only shoot one type match, Free Pistols shooters don't shoot other styles or the reverse. They learn to shoot one gun great!

Ahem.

There are still some shooters that hold National Records in Free Pistol, Sport Pistol, Bullseye Pistol, and other disciplines. Even 20 or 30 years later.

Adam may have grabbed some, but he didn't grab all of them.

Records are made to be broken. The ones I broke in the '90s were set in the '60s. It's now 30 years later, and it's time for new shooters to break mine and Adam's records.

But I'll hang on to mine as long as I have them.

Froneck wrote:Nothing wrong with a Ruger! Most .22LR pistols will shoot a great group at 50 yards! Problem is that it's different from the 1911! Adams .22 while in the AMU was a 208 that looked like a 1911 at a quick glance. It had 1911 grips and grip angle was the same. He had one built but is working with a Nelson conversion now and was using a Marvel before retiring from Army.
 Olympic shooter only shoot one type match, Free Pistols shooters don't shoot other styles or the reverse. They learn to shoot one gun great!

Funny that Henderson shot bullseye (with both 2700 records and service pistol records) and free pistol to a level you (nor I and many others as well) have never got close too. I have also seen Zurek shoot some impressive Free pistol and Bullseye. Sanderson also shoots Olympic Rapid and Bullseye at a high level too. That Bickar guy also has done some good work with the international stuff so I have heard, have not had the opportunity to discuss that aspect of precision shooting with him though, but he also seems to do well with a service pistol. I am sure I am missing a few other names of shooters that did both international stuff and bullseye.

The mindset that your 22 needs to be like a 1911 is overrated, a good shot process and following it is far more important than any equipment. In fact I would argue that having a 22 that did not match your 1911 demands that you pay attention to how you interface with the firearm. If you have to learn how to grip two different guns you can then understand which aspects of your personal grip are most important.

Process >> equipment.

chiz1180 wrote:The mindset that your 22 needs to be like a 1911 is overrated, 

Didn't the AMU shoot Hammerli's with 1911 grip adapters?

Not saying that it has to be 1911 related, but there certainly is some considerable success by doing so.

Froneck wrote:I recommend you buy the most accurate pistols you can afford! When Adam started shooting I put the most accurate pistols and best ammo in his hands. Only thing needed for him to shoot great scores was to learn how! Marine manual is a good way to learn. Avoid bad advise! At every club there is the worst shooter that knows how to shoot a perfect score and willing to tell others how to do it! Yet he can't and has a lot of excuses why! Talk only to high masters or masters, if you are at a match talk to the best there is but wait until they have time to talk! Avoid buying some super accurate pistol build by an unknown smith! There are quite a few that say they can build a tack driver but haven't a clue how and don't! Don't bother with center fire lower caliber pistols, they add cost, the 45acp is the only center fire pistol you should have! A conversion is a good way to keep the one gun in your hand, you can convert your 45acp to .22LR, later if funds are available get a dedicated frame for it. A decent gun box and good spotting scope are also items needed.

The most accurate pistol you can afford?  You can take almost any reputable .22, and clamped in a rest, it will shoot lovely tight groups you will never see shooting with one hand.  

The question is not how "accurate it is", it how accurate can YOU shoot it?  That depends on a lot of things that will vary from shooter to shooter.  The sights, weight, balance, grips, and trigger need to suit you.  If you practice enough, you can learn to shoot almost any pistol well, but some pistols will make it a lot easier for an individual to shoot good scores.  A High Standard or a S&W Model 41 are both "accurate".  I can't stand the grips on the 41, and could never shoot one well.  I shot a High Standard for years, but my scores jumped when I got a Benelli.  They dropped when I got a Pardini, and they went back up when I got a MatchGun.  They are probably ALL equally "accurate".  The advantage of the higher end .22 pistols is adjustability.  The MatchGun allows you to adjust dozens of parameters that are fixed in a Ruger, High Standard, or Model 41.  Don't like the trigger? Adjust it.  Don't like the grip angle? Adjust it.  Don't like the width of the rear sight notch?  Adjust it.

My complaint about the Marine manual is…it doesn’t tell you how to do it. If you have a mentor, a coach or just other shooters, that’s a help but for most folks the info snd intensity is too low and progress can be exasperatingly slow, if at all. I struggled with that issue myself.

If l may suggest one more book to read…it’s Feeling Center as shown in the banner ad on the main home page.

I think you’ll be pleased.

I can tell you that I picked feeling center and am reading it and applying the info it has really been helping me it's cheap and an easy to get

AMU as far as I know did not use adapters. I was in their shop and have every piece of equipment needed to make anything they wanted, if not simply order from some company what they wanted. Keep in mind they had deep pockets, they could order a few of the top of the line pistols then alter them. If it didn't work out so what! Then put it in the arms room. Adam's 208 was welded and altered so it was similar to a 1911 lower end. His Bianchi open and metallic guns were 1911 in 9mm. Quite a few shooters are buying Pardinis and have grip adapters for 1911 grips. Zurek and Shue are using a Nelson .22LR.
 Skill is one of the most important factors in shooting, most of the top shooters can take any gun and shoot a good score with it. When Adam was sent to different bases to teach other shooters how to shoot he used rack grade guns and did quite well at 25 yards.
 However why shot a different design .22? Most have pivot triggers, different grip angles and other characteristics. Then change guns that are totally different to shoot centerfire and as some change again and shoot 1911 45acp. Quite a few of the top shooter are using the .22 conversion so as to have the one gun feel.
 Yes there are shooters like Sanderson that shoot well in Bullseye and International style matches but how many of them have won a Gold medal in the Olympics and NRA National Match?
 However I too have different guns, a AW93 and MatchGun .22LR but I did buy a Nelson that's on a dedicated frame. But built a .22LR conversion that firing pin springs will be here Tuesday plus different hammer will make the gun a shooter I think! At this time it functions well with CCI Standard velocity ammo. I did make adapter for the AW to use 1911 grips and have a Printed grip made for MatchGun for 1911 grip angle.
 However for the New shooter why not start with one gun feel? He will need a 1911 tack driver, why not add a low cost conversion on the frame to shoot the .22 match?
 Having an accurate pistol will eliminate and excuse it was the guns fault! If gun and Ammo tack drive then bad shots need to be adjusted buy putting screw driver in the ear and tightening a few loose screws.

Not to throw an unneeded $0.02 into an already full piggy bank of advice…

Since you’re looking at RRA for the .45/CF 1911, I’m PRESUMING budget sensitivity isn’t a huge issue.  It’s an issue for everyone to some extent, but we’re not talking about scrimping pennies and eating ramen to buy a Hi-Point.

Get the best .22 you feel comfortable spending “fun money” on.  If you ever need to turn it back into cash, they hold value.  You’ll always be able to get a Ruger Target model at any time if things don’t work out.

As for .22 suggestions—it needs to be reliable, well-balanced, and have an excellent trigger.  Look at what the Masters and HMs shoot.  A Hammerli 208/215 or a well-preserved Hamden High Standard is a pretty economical way to get a proper match pistol.  The 1911 conversions are immensely popular.  

Just a quick correction re: Shue’s choice—he runs a Nelson conversion from time to time, but his #1 .22 is a 208. He has a locker full of 208s and spare parts in his machine shop. He’s local; I shot his main 208 at a match recently when my conversion was disabled.

There are no trophies or badges given based on points earned per dollar spent.  In a perfect world with unlimited access to match pistols and spare parts, the only advice would be, “buy the pistol with which you shoot your highest scores consistently.”  Parking money in quality equipment is not a question of buying points—it’s removing unnecessary impediments to shooting at the limit of your ability.

Well said, kinda what I'm trying to say! removing any question as to why you have a 8 or 7 not the 10 you wanted. Learning to shoot is a series of Ah HA moments. When you do everything right and there is a hole in the X ring you say to yourself AH Ha that's how it's done! But if you do everything correctly and the gun puts one in the 7 ring your confused as to why! Worse is you don't correctly fire a shot but gun error put the hole in the 10 ring you will have a false AH HA moment and do the same thing again but with different results. Don't limit your ability by buying a gun that simply shoots better than yourself. I can't tell you how many shooters have a 1911 that will shoot a 4 or 5" group at 50 yards because it shoots better than they can! Your group is a combination of your best group capability and the guns! If you shoot 6" group and gun shoots 4" the result will be a 10" group! You will learn nothing! Pistol score is a test of what you learned in practice!

Shellback, I think you are on the right track with the Ruger MK and RRA 1911. I would prefer the Ruger to have the 22/45 grip, but that is a personal preference. There are a lot of aftermarket upgrades available for the Ruger. An aftermarket trigger is all a Ruger MK really needs. You could easily make Outdoor Master with those two guns, as long as, you feed them the right ammo.

Focus on shooting a 22 well first. They’re accurate and precise, economical to use . Buy several and see what you prefer. Basics learned there can then be applied to CF/45. 

Another cheer for 1911 conversions here. Oh and BTW..look at some airguns too.