Equipment guidance for Pistol (Starting Out)

JRV wrote:Not to throw an unneeded $0.02 into an already full piggy bank of advice…

Since you’re looking at RRA for the .45/CF 1911, I’m PRESUMING budget sensitivity isn’t a huge issue.  It’s an issue for everyone to some extent, but we’re not talking about scrimping pennies and eating ramen to buy a Hi-Point.

Get the best .22 you feel comfortable spending “fun money” on.  If you ever need to turn it back into cash, they hold value.  You’ll always be able to get a Ruger Target model at any time if things don’t work out.

As for .22 suggestions—it needs to be reliable, well-balanced, and have an excellent trigger.  Look at what the Masters and HMs shoot.  A Hammerli 208/215 or a well-preserved Hamden High Standard is a pretty economical way to get a proper match pistol.  The 1911 conversions are immensely popular.  

Just a quick correction re: Shue’s choice—he runs a Nelson conversion from time to time, but his #1 .22 is a 208.  He has a locker full of 208s and spare parts in his machine shop.  He’s local; I shot his main 208 at a match recently when my conversion was disabled.

There are no trophies or badges given based on points earned per dollar spent.  In a perfect world with unlimited access to match pistols and spare parts, the only advice would be, “buy the pistol with which you shoot your highest scores consistently.”  Parking money in quality equipment is not a question of buying points—it’s removing unnecessary impediments to shooting at the limit of your ability.

RodJ wrote:Man oh man, all this advice from Master and High Master shooters, and not one mediocre marksman pitching in. 8-)

From the cheap seats:
Rock River over Les Baer. All. Day. Long. Or used "built" pistol.  Or the Springfield mentioned above.  Price being the guide for starter / mid level. Might shoot some matches with .22 and make that decision down the road.

Stupid reliability / reasonable cost .22 for beginner / mid level = Ruger Mk pistol, which ever style you shoot best.  Any of these "hoity toity Masters" can crush it with a Ruger, even with a stock trigger.  Pocket change money for a trigger job, and I'd let them shoot an apple off my head at 50 yards (with GOOD ammo LOL).  

I shoot better scores with an ML series High Standard Victor, but I think that's only because the trigger is better.  And only because mine has been super reliable.  Price $600-700.  Really almost in line with a Ruger and trigger job.  That said, a Ruger is a forever gun for a blue collar shooter or a white collar shooter if he / she is willing to admit it after a few drinks.

Marine Corp Manual - if it works for you and you have The Right Stuff, go for it.  Bruce's Feeling Center has been very helpful explaining the "why".

But all the books and reading and thinking that I did at the beginning, didn't compete with the words "an uncluttered mind".  Quantum leap for me, because I suffer from a right brain dominance overthinking and under practicing.  It took a lay off, stepping back, and then caving in to an uncluttered mind before anything changed.  It's not easy, but it's really a stupid simple activity, if you don't get in the way.  That's not a perfect sentence or summary but that's helped me: An uncluttered mind.

DA/SA wrote:

chiz1180 wrote:The mindset that your 22 needs to be like a 1911 is overrated, 

Didn't the AMU shoot Hammerli's with 1911 grip adapters?

Not saying that it has to be 1911 related, but there certainly is some considerable success by doing so.

bruce martindale wrote:My complaint about the Marine manual is…it doesn’t tell you how to do it. If you have a mentor, a coach or just other shooters, that’s a help but for most folks the info snd intensity is too low and progress can be exasperatingly slow, if at all. I struggled with that issue myself.

If l may suggest one more book to read…it’s Feeling Center as shown in the banner ad on the main home page.

I think you’ll be pleased.

bruce martindale wrote:My complaint about the Marine manual is…it doesn’t tell you how to do it. If you have a mentor, a coach or just other shooters, that’s a help but for most folks the info and intensity is too low and progress can be exasperatingly slow, if at all. I struggled with that issue myself.

DA/SA wrote:

bruce martindale wrote:My complaint about the Marine manual is…it doesn’t tell you how to do it. If you have a mentor, a coach or just other shooters, that’s a help but for most folks the info and intensity is too low and progress can be exasperatingly slow, if at all. I struggled with that issue myself.

So true when you are new to this type of shooting. Similar to your book, going through it again a little farther down the road helps understand it better.

Another issue I found was printing the targets on white printer paper!

When I was using the manual, I bought manilla colored paper to print them on and it made a significant difference. Being in Florida where we actually have sunshine, the bright white paper washed out the dot and there was significant glare. Just too much contrast, even with sunglasses on. 

Just something to consider for those printing their own targets.

bruce martindale wrote:Focus on shooting a 22 well first. They’re accurate and precise, economical to use . Buy several and see what you prefer. Basics learned there can then be applied to CF/45. 

Another cheer for 1911 conversions here. Oh and BTW..look at some airguns too.

jareds06 wrote:Guns:
Service Pistol: Swiss SIG P210-6: $2500
22 EIC: Hammerli 208: $900
Revolver: S&W K38: $500

Ammo:
9mm: ~3000 rounds: $850 (124gr Swiss P approx 425/1500)
.22 LR: ~3,000 rounds: $250 (CCI Std, approx 8cpr)
.38 Special: ~900 rounds: $350? (PMC Bronze 132gr, bought a 1000 round case for about $350)
.45 Auto: ~300 rounds: $generously donated by many! (Atlanta Arms JHP)

Misc equipment: 
Stapler $10
Tape $5
Scope w/ stand $40
Gym Bag $20
CLP: $cheap
ECI: free

Total: $5425
Accomplished: P100, Dist. Pistol, 22, and Revolver

Now that's what I ended up spending, but I don't think you would really need to spend that much to accomplish the same things.

If I did it again knowing what I know now, I think the only thing I would change is I would not have purchased the P210-6 to be my service pistol. I would have used a Beretta 92A1 I picked up for about $600 a couple years ago. Recently, in testing with the same ammo, I put a 4 inch group down at 50 yards with only a change of sights. The group scored 93 and that was without any sight adjustment after installing; if the group was centered it could easily have been a 96 or 97. My Second target was an 87 and entirely due to me wanting to get out of the 109 degree heat. With the stock sights, I shot an 85 at 50 yards once figuring out roughly where to hold (top right of the repair center, gotta love fixed sights). In timed fire I averaged a 96 with stock sights and a 98 with the target sights. For rapid, my weakest stage, I averaged an 89 with stock sights and 90 with target sights. And just to establish a baseline on both days, I shot my P210 and shot my average of about 90%.

Stock Sights: 85+96+89: 270/300
Target Sights: 87+93+98+90: 368/400

That is MORE than enough to go distinguished and get P100, especially if I were to practice my rapid fire more and really hammer down the short line. 

So I would say if I could go back in time for Service Pistol I would spend
A good Beretta 92A1: $600
"Good" = handle them at the store and find the one with 0 barrel play at the muzzle or breech, mine has almost none
LPA target sights: $100
3000 rounds of 9mm: $850
Total price: $1550
What I actually spent on Service Pistol (not including general items): $3350
What I spent on .22 EIC: $1150
Revolver: $850

What this doesn't account for is the many thousands of dryfires and all the time that took. So what does a shooter really need to start in bullseye? I think if I had to direct someone, I would have them buy a high quality target 22, like an H208 or S&W 41, and a ton of CCI standard. That can get them started on earning their first distinguished badge as well as participating in the 2700s via .22 only. I'd say they should probably pick up a stapler, some masking tape, and a cheap scope with a stand, but they really don't need a box (other than a pistol case). 

Their next purchase should be a service pistol, and for that I'd recommend a Beretta 92 primarily for the fact that good quality 9mm is so, so much less than good .45. I'm waiting to hear what Jon Shue has to say about the 2 Tisas 1911's he's rebuilding and I'm also doing a similar test with my own Tisas 1911. So far I've replaced the sights with target sights and was able to hit a 1/3 torso at 100 yards with atlanta arms, havent done a serious 50yd/25 yd test yet. I think I would still nudge them toward the Beretta just due to ammo costs.

For revolver, S&W model 14s/K38s are INCREDIBLY cheap for how high quality they are and it's the obvious choice. PMC Bronze has shown itself to be more than adequate for both the long and short line.

As for a really nice/custom built .45 match pistol, I don't think that would be a wise year 1 investment for a new bullseye shooter and chances are they'd be waiting some time to receive it depending on who they order it from.

jareds06 wrote:I made a topic detailing what I spent/bought my first year of bullseye that I will post below if you are interested but I'll summarize it here

Knowing what I know now, my recommendation for anyone starting out in the sport is to get a good .22 like a Hammerli 208, a lot of .22 ammo, a solid service pistol like a Beretta 92 (Swap out the sights for black on black LPAs) or the MAC JSOC 1911 form Tisas and hit the matches hard with just the .22. If you can't hit your goals in the 2700 with a .22, what chance do you stand with a .45? .22 handguns are cheap, fun, and accurate and the winner of the .22 Only category at Perry last year won a damn Pardini (I knew I should have shot .22 only!)! 

Not to mention the .22 is used in all the major international sports and it looks like 25m Rapid Fire is being replaced by 25m Sport Pistol from here on out  making it less necessary to have *the* rapid fire-spec'd Pardini SP22. The sky really is the limit with a solid .22. Make it an extension of yourself, it is *the* most important pistol you can own. The custom 1.5" 1911/.45 should come later in my opinion, probably after you can prove to yourself you can reliably break somewhere around 92-94 at 50 yards with the .22. At this point you will probably only be hitting 90 average with your service pistol, the limiting factor most likely being the pistol itself, at least this is what I've found in my own shooting.

jareds06 wrote:Guns:
Service Pistol: Swiss SIG P210-6: $2500
22 EIC: Hammerli 208: $900
Revolver: S&W K38: $500

Ammo:
9mm: ~3000 rounds: $850 (124gr Swiss P approx 425/1500)
.22 LR: ~3,000 rounds: $250 (CCI Std, approx 8cpr)
.38 Special: ~900 rounds: $350? (PMC Bronze 132gr, bought a 1000 round case for about $350)
.45 Auto: ~300 rounds: $generously donated by many! (Atlanta Arms JHP)

Misc equipment: 
Stapler $10
Tape $5
Scope w/ stand $40
Gym Bag $20
CLP: $cheap
ECI: free

Total: $5425
Accomplished: P100, Dist. Pistol, 22, and Revolver

Now that's what I ended up spending, but I don't think you would really need to spend that much to accomplish the same things.

If I did it again knowing what I know now, I think the only thing I would change is I would not have purchased the P210-6 to be my service pistol. I would have used a Beretta 92A1 I picked up for about $600 a couple years ago. Recently, in testing with the same ammo, I put a 4 inch group down at 50 yards with only a change of sights. The group scored 93 and that was without any sight adjustment after installing; if the group was centered it could easily have been a 96 or 97. My Second target was an 87 and entirely due to me wanting to get out of the 109 degree heat. With the stock sights, I shot an 85 at 50 yards once figuring out roughly where to hold (top right of the repair center, gotta love fixed sights). In timed fire I averaged a 96 with stock sights and a 98 with the target sights. For rapid, my weakest stage, I averaged an 89 with stock sights and 90 with target sights. And just to establish a baseline on both days, I shot my P210 and shot my average of about 90%.

Stock Sights: 85+96+89: 270/300
Target Sights: 87+93+98+90: 368/400

That is MORE than enough to go distinguished and get P100, especially if I were to practice my rapid fire more and really hammer down the short line. 

So I would say if I could go back in time for Service Pistol I would spend
A good Beretta 92A1: $600
"Good" = handle them at the store and find the one with 0 barrel play at the muzzle or breech, mine has almost none
LPA target sights: $100
3000 rounds of 9mm: $850
Total price: $1550
What I actually spent on Service Pistol (not including general items): $3350
What I spent on .22 EIC: $1150
Revolver: $850

What this doesn't account for is the many thousands of dryfires and all the time that took. So what does a shooter really need to start in bullseye? I think if I had to direct someone, I would have them buy a high quality target 22, like an H208 or S&W 41, and a ton of CCI standard. That can get them started on earning their first distinguished badge as well as participating in the 2700s via .22 only. I'd say they should probably pick up a stapler, some masking tape, and a cheap scope with a stand, but they really don't need a box (other than a pistol case). 

Their next purchase should be a service pistol, and for that I'd recommend a Beretta 92 primarily for the fact that good quality 9mm is so, so much less than good .45. I'm waiting to hear what Jon Shue has to say about the 2 Tisas 1911's he's rebuilding and I'm also doing a similar test with my own Tisas 1911. So far I've replaced the sights with target sights and was able to hit a 1/3 torso at 100 yards with atlanta arms, havent done a serious 50yd/25 yd test yet. I think I would still nudge them toward the Beretta just due to ammo costs.

For revolver, S&W model 14s/K38s are INCREDIBLY cheap for how high quality they are and it's the obvious choice. PMC Bronze has shown itself to be more than adequate for both the long and short line.

As for a really nice/custom built .45 match pistol, I don't think that would be a wise year 1 investment for a new bullseye shooter and chances are they'd be waiting some time to receive it depending on who they order it from.

rich.tullo wrote:

That should cost under $3000 just tell your wife it did not cost much and it'll be good.

rich.tullo wrote:45acp an SRO costs about $800 if you can find LNIB. Trigger Job with factory MIM parts until they break, Tuning the extractor, Videki trigger,  and Mags 0 to 300 depending on DYI or Smith. New Barrel Cushing and Scope rail , $300 , PRA Aimpoint Clone $150, all in no barreling : Under $1500  

22LR shoot the Ruger you have and upgrade the trigger  , add Scope $350 max. 

Spotting scope $100 

Ammo  if you reload the 45acp  $500 after the initial investment in reloading gear. 

22LR A case of ELey Yellow box should cost around $600 

That should cost under $3000 just tell your wife it did not cost much and it'll be good.

bruce martindale wrote:And it seems no one loves the AW93….

bruce martindale wrote:And it seems no one loves the AW93….

gwhite wrote:

bruce martindale wrote:And it seems no one loves the AW93….

 A couple collegiate teams have them, but having the magazine in the grip limits the flexibility of grip size and trigger position, especially for people with small hands.  The tiny Asian women on the team I help coach could never shoot them as easily as the Pardinis & Benellis we have.  We have quite a few XXS grips in use.

Have run a lot of matches, they also seem to have a disproportionately large number of alibis compared to most other pistols.   For most teams, cleaning & lubricating is up to the students, and the AW93 may be a little fussier if not well maintained. 

They are also not cheap, nor as widely available used.  If they fit your hand and are well cared for, I expect they are fine.

gwhite wrote:It always amazes me that people recommend Rugers for competition shooting, and then turn around and say "but you need to do this, replace that, have a gunsmith fix this other thing, buy this accessory, etc."  Just get a High Standard, and start shooting...

Sa-tevp wrote:

gwhite wrote:It always amazes me that people recommend Rugers for competition shooting, and then turn around and say "but you need to do this, replace that, have a gunsmith fix this other thing, buy this accessory, etc."  Just get a High Standard, and start shooting...

... and learn to maintain the HS magazines? 

Sa-tevp wrote:

gwhite wrote:It always amazes me that people recommend Rugers for competition shooting, and then turn around and say "but you need to do this, replace that, have a gunsmith fix this other thing, buy this accessory, etc."  Just get a High Standard, and start shooting...

... and learn to maintain the HS magazines?