Ask a High Master Question of the Week

So a gentleman who was on the AMU and who works at the range I frequent, has kindly offered some pieces of advice over time.  One is that I should train such that I can get into my stance, raise the pistol with eyes closed, and have the sights aligned and pointing at the same spot every time.

I find that once I'm adjusted in my stance, if I close my eyes and raise the pistol, i am typically "off" to one side or another (sometimes a bit high or low but usually windage issues).

For the Masters and HM, was this something you achieved and if so, any recommendations on how to develop that consistency?

[This series "Ask a High Master" is brought to you thanks to whoever pointed out that we rarely ever ask a HM how they got there.]


Thank you kindly for your thoughts.

Proprioception takes practice!

I've received two dissimilar lines of counsel about this from two accomplished shooters (Erich Buljung and Brian Zins).

Erich's opinion was that when you do this, you should be exactly centered on the target.

Brian's opinion is that "Natural Point of Aim" is a myth (paraphrase, not his exact words, unless I lucked into a direct quote).

I'm somewhere in between. I do this exercise before shooting. If I'm way off, I correct my stance. If I'm off by a little, e.g., half the width of the target, I don't do much, as I tend to adjust my stance throughout the course of the match due to prevailing/changing conditions anyhow.

I’m not in the master category but I tell you what you trying to achieve with your stance. It’s also possible you are misunderstanding part of his advice.

  Your goal with your stance is have the gun aligned on your target naturally.  When you do this properly you are not using any muscle energy to “make” the gun line up. If you are exerting force, your muscles will fatigue and that hold will be inconsistent.  
  Now how to get there - when I line up before a string I will assume my stance, close my eyes and raise my gun (actually I raise my hand with my finger/thumb acting as as gun like we did when we were kids) and check the alignment. I am usually close but just like you, I am can be off a bit. At that point I close my eyes, adjust my back foot accordingly and repeat the process. Until it lines up naturally. Once or twice and I’m good to go for that string. I’ll do this every string. I have never tracked this, but I doubt I come up perfectly on target 1 out 10 times. I usually have to adjust.  Maybe I’m wrong but this is the way I have always understood the process from when I was given that same advice.

Good luck
John

I concur with Bickar's method. 
I kinda think Buljung's advice locks the shooter into the same thinking as "not wanting to adjust sights through out a match."
I always adjusted as necessary.

I’m not a master, but I am in the process of learning the game. I have taken the Zins clinic 3 times. I’m not sure he said that he doesn’t think there’s a “natural point of aim” in pistol shooting, but he doesn’t think that it is easily found. I tend to agree with the Gunny. At best it’s a broad area. About the size of a target at 25. Pistol shooting is muscular and your muscles change day to day and even during the day. As your muscles change your “correct” stance to center your sights and align with the bullseye changes as well. With people who have aged muscles and a sedate lifestyle, it’s even difficult to even get one stance to be truly repeatable.

IMO, a beginner shooter should try to develop a body-kinetic sense that your feet need to change. And when working on the lift dont over lift and try to lift as repeatable as you can. When you do assume your stance tru to get your “area of aim” within the target frame and learn how to adjust to alleviate over muscling.

RodJ wrote:I find that once I'm adjusted in my stance, if I close my eyes and raise the pistol, i am typically "off" to one side or another

Sight alignment, or alignment to the target, or both?

It would seem that step one would be to raise to a blank wall and work in grip until the sights come up in alignment, or the dot is centered in the scope. without any muscle influence.

As far as step two, raising onto the target, trying to think too much can get in the way. Raising to where you think the target should be, (consciously) as in looking at the target, then closing your eyes and trying to raise to where you think the target is, can lead to inconsistencies, as it may not be a very neutral arm position.

Try just raising to a comfortable arm position without thinking about where the target is, (subconsciously) and see if consistency improves. Once that happens fairly consistently, then worry about adjusting your stance to align with the target.

I hope that makes sense!

That is what has helped me.

'When it comes to pistol shooting remember this, "NPA is BS." There is no such thing as NPA when you are holding a gun in one hand, aligning it to a target 25 or 50 yards away and squeezing the trigger while establishing a perfect sight alignemnt and sight picture so that the the hammer falls at the very precise moment that the sights are aligned in the center of your, now listen closely, "AIMING AREA."'

Posted by Brian Zins on http://cabotnrapistol.com/sight-alignment/

For stuff like this it is best to experiment for yourself. Shoot a bit with your current process for getting your stance, make a modification to that method see if their is a difference that is appreciable. You could get any given HM/MA shot process/procedure written down and follow it "perfectly" yet not have similar results.

Also remember when receiving any advice from anyone, understand where it is coming from and the related bias and try not to take it out of context.

NPA is important and balance is too. Perfect NPA is really not that important as long as you are on the backer and  fell comfortable when you are shooting with a dot that is GTG. If you are shooting with irons then maybe NPA is more important. 

My two cents? and these guys know better.

Are we now into two different discussions depending on interpretation? 

With the statement "NPA is BS", does Brian Zins not step up to the bench cold and raise his pistol to check his alignment at some point prior to shooting? (perhaps not at his level of shooting)

Are some interpreting RodJ's question to mean if the dot should be laser focused on the X ring when opening his eyes, or just on the repair center or in it's reasonable proximity?

My comments above are in reference to the latter, with the dot centered in the scope.

My eye, rear and front sight alignment is usually good, but if not then I reposition my grip.  Then I take my  normal stance, close eyes, raise gun, and then move my rear foot as necessary to get pointed on the target.  I also feel around to check if it feels comfortable and "natural" for that day.  I might open or close my stance a bit, find that I'm on my heels or toes, or notice that my finger tips are torquing the gun.  I'll fix those and restart the whole process again.

The problem comes when I repeatedly raise the gun with my eyes closed and find that I am pointing off to one side.  Sometimes off the target frame even at 25.  

In my normal process, I look at the front sight when the pistol is down, focus on it, and follow it up (eyes open) and let it settle.  I must be picking up cues from my peripheral vision, because i will end up pointing at the bull or close to it.  If not, I restart the whole shootin' match (pun fully intended) because that tells me I haven't built my stance properly.

The issue that annoys me escapes me?) is once I am feeling squared away, my kinesthetic / proprioceptive sense isnt there without my eyes open.

I think some are missing the point Bickar made; if you are trying to get "set up" correctly at the match, you've already choked.
You need to put in the time:
Dry firing
Learning your trigger
Making your stance second nature
Holding the pistol while watching the tube to imprint the grip in your hand so it feels natural.
Be willing to adjust as necessary throughout the match.
Lower the pistol and start over when you know a slow fire shot sucks!!!
My .02

Wes Lorenz wrote:I think some are missing the point Bickar made; if you are trying to get "set up" correctly at the match, you've already choked.
You need to put in the time:
Dry firing
Learning your trigger
Making your stance second nature
Holding the pistol while watching the tube to imprint the grip in your hand so it feels natural.
Be willing to adjust as necessary throughout the match.
Lower the pistol and start over when you know a slow fire shot sucks!!!
My .02

Wes, I dont follow where John B says that if you are getting set up correctly at a match, then you've choked. Don't all HM / MA take a moment to build a stance and raise their gun to check / confirm alignment?  Are you saying that they assume their stance, load and shoot without any other adieu?  If so, I didnt read that.  Please elaborate as I am clearly missing something.  

My question was around whether our HM's worked to perfect an ability to close their eyes, raise the pistol, and be aligned on the target repeatedly.

I get the feeling most of these questions and answers are about feet position.  The more important "NPA" thing, to me, is Natural Position of Alignment.  Meaning Aligning the gun and sights with your EYE.  Many factors to that.  Grip, wrist, elbow, shoulder, head positions...etc.

I have a hard time communicating my thoughts, but I'm pretty sure that's not one of the things Bickar worries about from my take on what he wrote. If I'm wrong I'll give him my last 4lbs of WW452AA if he shows up at a match in OR or WA. 
I was trying to get the point across that if you haven't put in the training time to the point that every movement used in one handed precision pistol shooting becomes as natural as possible (like martial arts) you'll have too many issues revolving around in your brain. 
In my experience:
Without thinking about it, I just knew how to take my position, grip the pistol and shoot (through lots of training). In a match, sight picture was never a problem, so the only chatter going on in my brain was concentrating on trigger press. 
Just like precision TIG welding - the only thing I concentrated on was the filler rod end at the puddle.
Hope this helps

Thanks for the clarification.

I understood Rod's original question to be in regard to training as a less experienced shooter trying to develop these skills.

Your comments are greatly appreciated!

Wes Lorenz wrote:If I'm wrong I'll give him my last 4lbs of WW452AA if he shows up at a match in OR or WA. 

You are an evil, evil man, toying with my emotions like that.

DA/SA wrote:Are we now into two different discussions depending on interpretation? 

With the statement "NPS[sic] is BS", does Brian Zins not step up to the bench cold and raise his pistol to check his alignment at some point prior to shooting? (perhaps not at his level of shooting)

Are some interpreting RodJ's question to mean if the dot should be laser focused on the X ring when opening his eyes, or just on the repair center or in it's reasonable proximity?

My comments above are in reference to the latter, with the dot centered in the scope.

What Brian is saying is that Natural Point of Aim is BS.  It is Natural Area of Aim.

As to finding your NAA, you have to let your subconscious guide you some, or you will search a lot more than necessary.  But in the end, what you need to look for is a position that allows you to hold the gun such that there are minimal lateral pressures that you are applying to keep centered and you return to the same area after shot break.

The basic positioning should be constructed during training and refined for the day at matches.  The refinement should be easily obtained through learned clues developed in training and competition and should be a part of your journal notes.

Yes, when you set up at your firing point, you can do a quick check of your NAA for each string, but don't obsess over it.  In actuality, unless you're extremely off, you will do fine with proper trigger application.  NAA can change as you fatigue.  You can also retrain your NAA.

To the original post, yes, I achieved that consistency, in so far as I could raise the gun and be aligned with the sighting system within the aiming area to a close enough degree to shoot confidently.

Wow, lots of helpful, useful information.  This stuff is not easy to communicate, and rereading my initial question, I don’t think I posed it very well nor explained myself very well.  Thanks to everyone for clarifying a lot of things and providing your take on this subject.  It has helped unclutter my mind.

Will add this to my journal.