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The Updated Rules

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john bickar
Colt711
Astroimage2002
Jack H
Rob Kovach
C.Perkins
beeser
Brian Mason
gitkrunk
LenV
jmdavis
dronning
james r chapman
Jon Eulette
DeweyHales
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Post by DeweyHales 1/6/2015, 5:19 pm

The updated rules.
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Post by Jon Eulette 1/6/2015, 5:48 pm

Well for some reason I don't feel threatened by the NEW pistols allowed for EIC match :p).
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Post by james r chapman 1/6/2015, 5:49 pm

looks like no 9mm 1911's....
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Post by dronning 1/6/2015, 5:50 pm

DeweyHales wrote:The updated rules.

Thanks for the link
Oops misprint on cover.  This is the 19th addition.  The misprint says it supersedes the 19th addition - oops

- Dave
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Post by jmdavis 1/6/2015, 5:55 pm

Thanks Dewey!

Looks like what we mostly expected. I really wish that they would allow more than one military match for civillians though. Ah well.
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Post by LenV 1/6/2015, 6:08 pm

Thanks Dewey!

    It answered 99% of the questions that have been circulating. I am left with only 2 questions after reading these new rules. 1. Is a SWC the same as a WC? I know the NRA allows SWC but not WC for DSR matches. 2. Is a metal jacketed bullet the same as a FMJ? I have noticed that some FMJ's really are not and have lead exposed on the base. I bring this up because of the HP questions. I am just throwing those questions out there with the hope someone has the answers.

Len
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Post by DeweyHales 1/6/2015, 6:11 pm

james r chapman wrote:looks like no 9mm 1911's....
Yeah. That surprised me a bit.
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Post by LenV 1/6/2015, 6:26 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Well for some reason I don't feel threatened by the NEW pistols allowed for EIC match :p).


I think there was one pistol on the list that would make me worry a little. The Browning Hi-power can be a tack driver and there are a lot of them out there. I think they could give a lot of the stuff on the line a run for it. Just my opinion of course.

Len
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Post by gitkrunk 1/6/2015, 6:35 pm

yay my pardini qualifies for the 22 match
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Post by Brian Mason 1/6/2015, 6:37 pm

For .22 pistol:

"Any system of recoil based on a compensator, barrel venting, barrel porting or other recoil reduction system operating in a similar manner is prohibited."

Does that mean the Pardini and Feinwerkbau are prohibited because they have recoil buffers?

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Post by dronning 1/6/2015, 7:08 pm

Brian Mason wrote:For .22 pistol:

"Any system of recoil based on a compensator, barrel venting, barrel porting or other recoil reduction system operating in a similar manner is prohibited."

Does that mean the Pardini and Feinwerkbau are prohibited because they have recoil buffers?


"operating in a similar manner"  to me based on their descriptions = gas operated recoil reduction of some kind.  So if it doesn't use spent gasses I'd guess it's ok. 

- Dave
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Post by Brian Mason 1/6/2015, 7:28 pm

dronning wrote:
"operating in a similar manner"  to me based on their descriptions = gas operated recoil reduction of some kind.  So if it doesn't use spent gasses I'd guess it's ok. 

- Dave
Reading it again, I think you're right. In any event, it seems weird that CMP would push to align this competition with International, then ban the Pardini, given how popular it is.

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Post by beeser 1/7/2015, 5:08 pm

Similar to my comment/question on the ammunition side of the rules change, why does the CMP put limits on the type of guns used and how do they decide which ones are allowed.  Is it just arbitrary?  They apparently allow the Browning Hi-Power but not a 1911 9mm?  I don't get it.

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Post by LenV 1/7/2015, 5:56 pm

Beeser,
  The 9mm 1911 has never been used by our military as a service pistol. All the other pistols on the list have been used by some military as a service pistol. It's not an arbitrary thing.

Len
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Post by beeser 1/7/2015, 6:08 pm

OldMaster64 wrote:Beeser,
  The 9mm 1911 has never been used by our military as a service pistol. All the other pistols on the list have been used by some military as a service pistol. It's not an arbitrary thing.

Len
All of the pistols listed on pgs. 35-37 have been used by our military?  I didn't know that.

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Post by C.Perkins 1/7/2015, 6:24 pm

beeser wrote:
OldMaster64 wrote:Beeser,
  The 9mm 1911 has never been used by our military as a service pistol. All the other pistols on the list have been used by some military as a service pistol. It's not an arbitrary thing.

Len
All of the pistols listed on pgs. 35-37 have been used by our military?  I didn't know that.

Beeser;
By SOME military.
Not OUR military.

Clarence
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Post by gitkrunk 1/7/2015, 6:32 pm

so can i use my pardini? i don't know how that thing works ......just know how to make it go bang.
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Post by DeweyHales 1/7/2015, 8:36 pm

I'd bet that many of the approved other service pistols have never been used by any militaries. They might have been used by police forces, and it is arbitrary. 

It's all about civilian marksmanship. It should be open to civilian, defensive guns capable of safely firing within the time limits.


Last edited by DeweyHales on 1/7/2015, 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by james r chapman 1/7/2015, 8:38 pm

OldMaster64 wrote:Beeser,
  The 9mm 1911 has never been used by our military as a service pistol. All the other pistols on the list have been used by some military as a service pistol. It's not an arbitrary thing.

Len
Hmmmmm....

Brazilian Military 1911 in 9mm
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Post by LenV 1/7/2015, 8:48 pm

The neat thing about the new rules is the open end on pistols that are allowed. If you can make a case for any pistol all you have to do is send them the info. They will keep an updated list of current and new approved pistols on their site. Well that is what it says anyhow. I couldn't think of any military anywhere using a 952 but I will keep looking. Smile
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Post by beeser 1/7/2015, 9:16 pm

Or the Argentine variant of the 1911 in .22lr ...

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=93

I'll ask again, why do they have these (goofy) rules?  What is the CMP trying to accomplish?

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Post by Rob Kovach 1/7/2015, 9:35 pm

They are trying to accomplish a broader list of firearms that can be used for the service pistol match without making it a free-for-all.  They also intended for the .45 1911 to be competitive with the 9mm Beretta.  It also appears that they wanted to ensure the .45acp 1911 and 9mm Beretta did not have a disadvantage against the new guns on the list.

Beeser, if they allow 1911s in other calibers, the .38spl and .38 Supers would dominate, and really those were never widely used service pistols.  Accurate 50yd 9mm 1911s are hot rods and making it a free-for-all arms race isn't what CMP is trying to accomplish.

These rules were more thoughtful than others from the NRA.  Try not to get too wrapped up in the why.

P.S. the Argentine Ballester-Molina .22lr wasn't a service pistol.  The High Standard military was used by the military for training purposes but that isn't a "service pistol" either.

I would like to see these rules in effect for a while then see how the participation numbers look before we get too bent out of shape about what should be changed.
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Post by Jack H 1/7/2015, 9:48 pm

They can change rules all day long.  But they can not change people to want to travel 2-3 hours to shoot 30 shots.  Or to dedicate 5 hours a week for training and dryfire.  Most 30 shot events will coincide with 270 shot events.  Not to mention the special dedication for traveling 3000 miles to Perry.  I am not holding my breath for a lot of increase in participants.  

Someone had to say it.
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Post by james r chapman 1/7/2015, 10:04 pm

Well, it might get me travel from s.e. Michigan!

head towards Davis-Bessie and turn right?
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Post by Rob Kovach 1/8/2015, 12:57 am

Jack H wrote:I am not holding my breath for a lot of increase in participants.  
Want to put money on that?  I predict over 10% increase in reported scores for .22 EIC and Service Pistol over 2014s reported scores.
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