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Quest for the perfect handgun platform

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LenV
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STEVE SAMELAK
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Post by beeser 1/21/2015, 10:03 am

I've entered this territory before but now after experiencing some problems with revolvers I want to raise the question again.  What is the ideal handgun platform, theoretical or practical?  It seems to me, setting ammunition and internal barrel geometry aside, that the best platform is simply one in which the round is chambered in the barrel (as in a 1911) but the barrel does not change position relative to its sighting between rounds (not like a 1911).  The problems with revolvers as just discovered rule them out as an ideal platform because there apparently is always the possibility and likelihood that the barrel is not in line with the cylinder.  The 1911 on the other hand always seems to struggle with having the barrel return to its original and stationary position.  So, fixed barrel and round chambered in barrel, does it exist in a larger than .32 caliber auto loading handgun?  Is it even theoretically possible?

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Post by dronning 1/21/2015, 11:01 am

Yes there was a fixed barrel 1911 style chambered in 45ACP, Ed Masaki’s Dragon Gun. Very interesting but only a few were ever produced. There is a reason it's called the Dragon Gun. In low light major flames came out the ports, there are some awesome videos of it being shot indoors!
http://tonybrong.blogspot.com/2008/08/eds-dragon-gun.html

- Dave


Last edited by dronning on 1/21/2015, 12:15 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added info)
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Post by DavidR 1/21/2015, 12:02 pm

If there is a superior design it has not proved to exist so far, the dragon gun was a prototype that never made it farther than that test video, why? because it was far from perfect and in the end did not make it worthwhile to produce. The better thing to dwell on how can I train to shoot what is available to its utmost potential! Anyone that can do that will crush everyone and win every national and local match, shooting perfect 2700's. If I could have a gun I want, it would be a pardini gt 45 but built using a single stack frame and mag. That would be a interesting gun to try, imo
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Post by beeser 1/22/2015, 8:35 am

Has anyone tried the Hogue Avenger conversion?

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Post by Jon Eulette 1/22/2015, 8:54 am

I'm a realist! If you look at your own typical .22 score average, you'll see that this is your "BEST"! The match .22 pistols are fixed barrel design and with good ammo shoot in the 1/2" range at 50 yards from a rest. If you're not shooting great scores with the .22 don't think for a second that a fixed barrel .45 is going to do anything different for you. Good match .45's are shooting sub 1.5" groups at 50 yards. That's X-ring! Also with a 100 plus year old design for locking and unlocking from battery. It's a proven system for shooting winning scores.Top shooters are shooting into the 890's every year with the 1911 .45 pistol. There's no magic way to shoot better except really learning the fundamentals and applying them. Not talking about them, but applying them! With rare exception 99% of your shooters will always shoot the .22 better than the .45. Steve Reiter is the exception to that; he regularly shoots his .45 better than his .22 and has done it consistently over his long shooting career.
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Post by beeser 1/22/2015, 9:23 am

Jon Eulette wrote:I'm a realist! If you look at your own typical .22 score average, you'll see that this is your "BEST"! The match .22 pistols are fixed barrel design and with good ammo shoot in the 1/2" range at 50 yards from a rest. If you're not shooting great scores with the .22 don't think for a second that a fixed barrel .45 is going to do anything different for you. Good match .45's are shooting sub 1.5" groups at 50 yards. That's X-ring! Also with a 100 plus year old design for locking and unlocking from battery. It's a proven system for shooting winning scores.Top shooters are shooting into the 890's every year with the 1911 .45 pistol. There's no magic way to shoot better except really learning the fundamentals and applying them. Not talking about them, but applying them! With rare exception 99% of your shooters will always shoot the .22 better than the .45. Steve Reiter is the exception to that; he regularly shoots his .45 better than his .22 and has done it consistently over his long shooting career.
Jon
We've been down this road before and I get it.  Practice, train, dry fire, stick to the fundamentals, etc. all makes for a better bullseye shooter.  But I don't see anything wrong with exploring other gun designs, equipment or even other ways to shoot better.  I find it interesting and fun.  Bullseye history is replete with examples of participants that pushed the envelope with new ideas and equipment, some successful and others not so much.  As for the "100 plus year old design" of the 1911 I can't accept that it's the best that gun designers are capable of producing and I'm intrigued by the efforts of Ed Masaki, Hogue (Avenger) and others.

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Post by DavidR 1/22/2015, 9:48 am

A better mouse trap, still in the end does the same as a current one. Traps the mouse.
I agree the hunt for the better or new design equipment is fun, problem in this realm is it doesn't exist.

those designs like the dragon and avenger are not being used and also the pardini to some extent because yes they are different but they have been proved to be less efficient  than that beat to death old 104 year old 1911.  Your new, so I wont tell you to stop your search, but when you get into the sport to the point where getting better scores is your prime objective, I hope you have a good 22 and a good 1911, that's the tools that will be important to you then.
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Post by dronning 1/22/2015, 9:54 am

beeser wrote:Has anyone tried the Hogue Avenger conversion?
It never went anywhere, not sure why, but if they were accurate, practical to build and didn't break down I'm sure they would have had some market.  Several manufacturers have attempted to do a fixed barrel 45acp including Kimber back in '04 or '05.  Must be tough to do.

beeser wrote:..  What is the ideal handgun platform, theoretical or practical? 

Best handguns practical - IMHO
22lr Many, but a Nelson conversion is a good place to start, from there a Euro gun I like the Pardini
CF - Again many, a bullseye built 1911 in 45acp, .38spl. 9MM... (all can shoot 1 1/5" or better), a GT9 or GT45 or a Pardini in 32acp (1")
45 - Again many, a bullseye built 1911, Pardini GT45 (all can shoot 1 1/5" or better)


Best handgun theoretical - doesn't exist
Conversion using same platform for 22, CF, 45
Optic mount remains on platform
Swap out trigger group for weights.  Can be adjusted for 2 stage, or roll and roll length short to extra long (Zins) LOL.
Sub 1" groups

Except for the trigger group swapout concept the bullseye version of the Pardini with the .22lr and .32acp conversion get's you 2/3rds of the way there.



Reality
Look to see what the Masters and High Masters are shooting.
Many shoot a Euro gun for 22, Hammerli, Pardini, AW93.....
Most shoot their bullseye built 1911 45acp in CF & 45.  Sights, some shoot irons or frame mount optics but most shoot slide mounted optics.


OK I've wasted enough time on this time to go dry fire

- Dave
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Post by Jon Eulette 1/22/2015, 10:08 am

The .45 acp cartridge requires something to retard the slide during recoil. The mass of a typical slide is not enough to retard the slide without experiencing severe recoil. The Browning design uses the upper barrel lugs that lock into the slide lugs to retard the slide long enough to let pressure drop to a level to still actuate the pistol: blow back design (recoil slide to rear; eject, recoil spring forces slide back into battery; feeding). The Dragon Gun bleeds off pressure through multiple barrel ports. The Avenger probably has some sort of mechanism; assuming from the LARGE size of the pistol. So fixed barrel pistols are not easily made for larger calibers. The old 9mm H&K P7 pistol had a fixed barrel. So it's possible, but keeping it light enough to be capable fired one handed is the issue. Pistols are typically designed to be holstered and easily carried.
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Post by beeser 1/22/2015, 10:36 am

Jon - Is it the difference in the mass of the bullet that makes the .32 caliber blow back design in a Pardini SP possible but not so in .45 caliber assuming the bullets accelerate the same?

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Post by walt k 1/22/2015, 10:51 am

Just my 2 cents worth. Check out the new Korth .45 on 6mmbr.com.

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Post by beeser 1/22/2015, 11:21 am

walt k wrote:Just my 2 cents worth. Check out the new Korth .45 on 6mmbr.com.
Very, very nice!  Here's another link about the PRS.
http://www.guns.com/2013/12/27/meet-korth-prs-roller-delayed-blowback-1911-masterpiece-video/
or
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/01/14/korth-prs-impressions/

DavidR - Single stack!

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Post by DavidR 1/22/2015, 11:32 am

Very nice gun but too expensive for me and in the end I doubt it will have any better accuracy than a proper built 1911, groups can only get so small. Sub 1'' guns are not rare these days, I would like to see this gun tested at 50yds by a very competent tester just to see, but it is cool!
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Post by beeser 1/22/2015, 12:36 pm

DavidR wrote:Very nice gun but too expensive for me and in the end I doubt it will have any better accuracy than a proper built 1911, groups can only get so small. Sub 1'' guns are not rare these days, I would like to see this gun tested at 50yds by a very competent tester just to see, but it is cool!
I wouldn't dismiss it yet.  Korth is apparently trying to expand and with the stronger dollar the price might be competitive with a custom 1911.  They sure make some beautiful looking guns.

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Post by BE Mike 1/22/2015, 12:58 pm

My Hammerli 208s has shot a .79" ten shot group at 50 yards from a Ransom Rest. That being said, there is a framed target sitting on top of my desk that has a group of only 3 1/4". It was the first ten shots I fired at a Frank J. Bickar Memorial Regional Match. I couldn't really take advantage of the gun's accuracy, but I shot a clean! To me, it is the framed target that really has meaning. If your goal is to find the most novel and accurate pistol, then go for it. OTOH, if your goal is to see what heights you can achieve, then train.
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Post by beeser 1/22/2015, 1:01 pm

BE Mike wrote:....If your goal is to find the most novel and accurate pistol, then go for it. OTOH, if your goal is to see what heights you can achieve, then train.
Can't I do both?

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Post by DavidR 1/22/2015, 1:33 pm

beeser wrote:
DavidR wrote:Very nice gun but too expensive for me and in the end I doubt it will have any better accuracy than a proper built 1911, groups can only get so small. Sub 1'' guns are not rare these days, I would like to see this gun tested at 50yds by a very competent tester just to see, but it is cool!
I wouldn't dismiss it yet.  Korth is apparently trying to expand and with the stronger dollar the price might be competitive with a custom 1911.  They sure make some beautiful looking guns.

With a estimated price between 10 and 15k, they would really have to shave the price, but I do like it.
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Post by beeser 1/22/2015, 3:22 pm

DavidR wrote:With a estimated price between 10 and 15k, they would really have to shave the price, but I do like it.
I don't know where you got those figures but I was quoted a little over $5k with existing stock and less on the next wave of imports after factoring in a stronger dollar.  But as you stated earlier it would be nice to see how this gun would perform in the hands of a good shooter.  I would also like to hear about spare parts availability and service.  On a Korth revolver the later may not be an issue but this auto is a different animal.  I also thought it was interesting that a few reports coming out of Shot Show 2015 calling this gun a Korth 1911.  It looks like they are trying to be careful about not offending 1911 enthusiasts.

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Post by dronning 1/22/2015, 5:29 pm

beeser wrote:
...  I also thought it was interesting that a few reports coming out of Shot Show 2015 calling this gun a Korth 1911.  It looks like they are trying to be careful about not offending 1911 enthusiasts.

No offense taken since they are using the 1911 trigger design and the frame is only slightly modified to fit their slide assembly. 

Lets see $5,000 for a gun that might shoot a sub 1" group at 50 yards (not proven yet).   I'd take the $1-2,000 I'd save on a purpose built custom 1911 bullseye gun and buy a Dillon 1050 or a SCATT trainer, or ammo.

If you can hold the X ring and shoot X's it doesn't matter if it's with a 1" or 2" gun, an X is an X. 

I love Korth's I almost bought one of their revolvers from a friend that needed money but he sold his Vette instead.

I'd really be concerned about parts and fine tuning for lighter loads etc.. 

- Dave
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Post by Jerry Keefer 1/22/2015, 6:08 pm






Lets see $5,000 for a gun that might shoot a sub 1" group at 50 yards (not proven yet). 
Quite a few things are going to need improvements to shoot sub inch groups with a 45...9mm will often go sub inch.. There have been many hype advertisements in very recent years..Yet no earth shattering evidence.  Sub inch barrel tester groups are far and few in between.. There are some very sharp individuals who stay awake each and every night trying to find that "next level" of accuracy.. It hasn't happened..I think it will, improve slightly, but it won't be a mass produced factory gun.. Remember, the projectile has its limitations also.. A noted bullet manufacturer told me what their very best Kreiger test barrels were producing, and a finished gun is never going to match that..
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Post by beeser 1/22/2015, 6:22 pm

Jerry Keefer wrote:





Lets see $5,000 for a gun that might shoot a sub 1" group at 50 yards (not proven yet). 
Quite a few things are going to need improvements to shoot sub inch groups with a 45...9mm will often go sub inch.. There have been many hype advertisements in very recent years..Yet no earth shattering evidence.  Sub inch barrel tester groups are far and few in between.. There are some very sharp individuals who stay awake each and every night trying to find that "next level" of accuracy.. It hasn't happened..I think it will, improve slightly, but it won't be a mass produced factory gun.. Remember, the projectile has its limitations also.. A noted bullet manufacturer told me what their very best Kreiger test barrels were producing, and a finished gun is never going to match that..
Jerry,
It would be interesting to hear your opinion on the design of the Korth PRS.

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Post by CR10X 1/22/2015, 6:30 pm

BE Mike wrote:....If your goal is to find the most novel and accurate pistol, then go for it. OTOH, if your goal is to see what heights you can achieve, then train.
Can't I do both?


Yes, you can do both.  But the experience of some shooters has shown that it will probably be more beneficial if done sequentially rather than at the same time.  It may not seem to be the case, but constantly changing and  trying out pistols and trying to train to get better at the same time can be counter productive.  It's easy to get into the mindset of "maybe its the gun" versus "its me".  That get's in the way of really getting the mind behind training. 

Put another way, if a shooter can't produced a 1.25 to 1.5 inch group from the bench with a 1 inch gun, then how can they tell if a better gun is why they happened to get a better group that time?  If a shooter is not good enough to tell the difference between a 1 inch rest gun and a 3 inch rest gun, then how can they create an informed opinion on which is better?  And using a ransom rest?  I've seen people that couldn't get groups smaller than what I shot offhand because a ransom takes some technique as well.  And don't get me started on what reloads do to the equation.  I shot lots of very good grouping guns with triggers that were so bad I had a better score with lesser grouping guns.  Conversely, I've shot guns with great triggers and feel, that would pattern rather than group. 

So, anyway the accuracy builders will continue to try and get us better guns and it only takes money to get them.   To be able to use them anywhere near their potential..... well that takes commitment, dedication and and unwavering, merciless self appraisal.

But, if anyone thinks it makes them better shooters to do one, the other or both at the same time, have at it and have fun!


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Post by STEVE SAMELAK 1/22/2015, 6:33 pm

No matter what's in your hand the best platform you will EVER have is that flat spot between your ears.
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Post by larvatus 1/23/2015, 3:38 am

beeser wrote:
DavidR wrote:With a estimated price between 10 and 15k, they would really have to shave the price, but I do like it.
I don't know where you got those figures but I was quoted a little over $5k with existing stock and less on the next wave of imports after factoring in a stronger dollar.  But as you stated earlier it would be nice to see how this gun would perform in the hands of a good shooter.  I would also like to hear about spare parts availability and service.  On a Korth revolver the later may not be an issue but this auto is a different animal.  I also thought it was interesting that a few reports coming out of Shot Show 2015 calling this gun a Korth 1911.  It looks like they are trying to be careful about not offending 1911 enthusiasts.
The current MSRP of the Korth PRS is $3,000.00.

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Post by beeser 1/23/2015, 7:43 am

larvatus wrote:The current MSRP of the Korth PRS is $3,000.00.

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Based on your video shooting the PRS, what are your impressions of it?  Was this MSRP given to you by the manufacturer at Shot Show?  Was it for the base 4" model?

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

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