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Does SIZE Really Matter?

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Post by Axehandle Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:17 am

Anyone else note that the Army Distinguished Rifle badge is BIGGER than the Army Distinguished Pistol badge?

And...  How has all this CMP distinguished holey pokey affected the USA, USAF, USN, etc..  distinguished badge requirements?

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Post by Chris Miceli Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:59 am

Earlier this year navy didn't get around to updating scoring requirements so they operated on the old standard.  That was for the fleet force west match...no sure if they have changed anything yet

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Post by JWelch Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:13 pm

The CMP has a couple great articles about the history of the Distinguished Shooting Program, which includes discussion on the size of the respective badges.  I cannot say definitively for all branches of the military, but generally speaking, the Distinguished Pistol Shot Badge is 5/6ths the size of the Distinguished Rifleman/Marksman Badge.  I know this holds true for the U.S. Coast Guard.

http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/Distinguished_History.pdf

http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/In_Distinguished_Company_Culver_2000.pdf

With regards to the recent rule changes, the Coast Guard wrote its marksmanship instruction to essentially say that we will follow the CMP Rulebook. So, yes, Coasties must achieve the minimum cutoff scores.

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Post by Jerry.Yuen Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:39 pm

I earned both badges and the pistol is smaller. Rifle in 2004 and Pistol in 2012. I shot both Combat EIC as well as National Match style EIC for those points.

Army Regulation 350-66 was revised in August 2012 and the requirement was added that Soldiers could earn no more than 14 points in Non-Army competitions for their US Army Distinguished Badges. Active and Reserve Component Soldiers may fire only 2 Non-Army Matches per year.

The Army Combat Pistol EIC requires drawing the M9 or M11 from the holster and firing the first round in double action mode.

Stage 1 is at 30 yards and you have 60 seconds in the standing position engaging the target 1 with 5 rounds, reloading with 5 rounds and engaging target 2 with 5 rounds.

Stage 2 is at 25 yards and you have 45 seconds starting in the standing, dropping to kneeling and engaging target 1 with 5 rounds, reloading, dropping into the prone and engaging target 2 with 5 rounds.

Stage 3 is at 20 yards and you have 20 seconds in the standing position engaging the target 1 with 5 rounds, reloading with 5 rounds and engaging target 2 with 5 rounds.

Stage 4 is at 15 yards and you have 15 seconds in the standing position engaging the target 1 with 5 rounds, reloading with 5 rounds and engaging target 2 with 5 rounds.

Each shot is worth 5 points for a total of 200 points.

The Combat Rifle EIC starts at the 400 yard line and moves all the way down to the 25 yard line. It consists of a little running and gunning, multiple target engagement, snap fire, and uses the prone, kneeling, and standing positions.
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Post by Axehandle Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:10 pm

Smile   FWIW The USAF Rifle and Pistol Distinguished badges are the same size.   For a long time the AF didn't recognize ANY combat EIC points.  Our Air NG guys shooting combat really whined.   Then the AF started recognizing something like 14 combat points.  The better shooting Air NG combat guys still whined.  My badge is from '84.  All my points were from conventional EIC matches with a 45.  I retired in '95 so I don't know where the AF EIC program is today.
Does SIZE Really Matter? Eicdistg-1-1

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Post by robert84010 Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:04 pm

Jerry,
Can you tell us what target this is shot on. I am guessing it is similar to the NRA B27, the PPC target with different scoring rings. What is a typical score needed to make the top 10%.

It is a shame the CMP has missed the boat on offering a similar course of fire and a new badge.

Thanks.

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Post by Jerry.Yuen Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:19 pm

The Combat EIC Target is similar in dimensions to the NRA B27
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Post by mpolans Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:45 pm

So how does a civilian make distinguished in the combat pistol EIC?

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Post by robert84010 Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:59 pm

not allowed. Army or NG only. Write the CMP but it will go nowhere. They want nothing to do with any civilians doing this type of course of fire.

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Post by Allen Barnett Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:05 pm

I won't bite on that question other than to say it helps if you are a member of the military.  It can be done but it would be difficult.  You would need to contact the National Guard State Marksmanship Coordinator for information about shooting at state level and at the national level you would need to contact the National Guard Marksmanship Unit at Camp Robinson Arkansas.  Only "rack grade" weapons are allowed and it has to be either a 1911 Colt or a Beretta 92FS.  No changes to the stock pistol are allowed and you must shoot military hardball ammunition.  My information is several years old now as I have been retired for 12 years but at least you now know where to start.

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Post by Axehandle Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:14 pm

If things haven't changed the distinguished pistol shot badge USAF Shooters get for combat EIC  is the same one they get for conventional pistol EIC.  I don't see a civilian shooter getting awarded a USAF badge.

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Post by Allen Barnett Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:33 pm

Once upon a time.... back before the National Guard made the switch to all combat style shooting and still had Bullseye shooting it was possible for a civilian to shoot EIC matches and earn leg points.  I went back and looked at the match bulletins for the Winston P. Wilson matches (which is the biggie for the National Guard) and it now states that civilians are strictly prohibited from earning EIC points through the combat style course of fire. So I stand corrected to my original post.  No go for civilians earning a combat EIC badge!!!!!  Othe the other hand the 10 points that I earned while still in the military that were earned shooting the combat course of fire are now worthless to me on becoming distinguished. LOL

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Post by JayhawkNavy02 Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:03 pm

Christopher Miceli wrote:Earlier this year navy didn't get around to updating scoring requirements so they operated on the old standard.  That was for the fleet force west match...no sure if they have changed anything yet

Not correct.  That was a conscious decision and not made lightly.  The USMC does not abide by the cutoff in Division matches, which are equivalent to Fleet.  For both services any points outside those events are required to abide by current CMP rules.  I can't speak for the USAF/USMC but the last instructions I saw did not have the 250 cutoff either, but that was a year ago.  They can speak for themselves.
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Post by james r chapman Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:04 pm

robert84010 wrote:not allowed. Army or NG only. Write the CMP but it will go nowhere. They want nothing to do with any civilians doing this type of course of fire.

Not quite true.

Under Action Pistol they now have the Civilian 1500 PPC, using the exact same rules and courses of fire as LEO's.

Unfortunately,no distinguished.
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Post by robert84010 Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:39 pm

james r chapman wrote:
robert84010 wrote:not allowed. Army or NG only. Write the CMP but it will go nowhere. They want nothing to do with any civilians doing this type of course of fire.

Not quite true.

Under Action Pistol they now have the Civilian 1500 PPC, using the exact same rules and courses of fire as LEO's.

Unfortunately,no distinguished.
I don't get your point. you said not quite true and then reiterated my point. He asked about Distinguished civilian combat badges. There are none, period, and a civilian cannot shoot in the Army matches and would never have been awarded an Army combat badge anyway. no CMP badge exists and probably never will.
Yeah, a non-LEO civilian can shoot at very few of the NRA PPC events but you can't get a classification or points. no badge. 

The NRA action pistol badge is composed of the barricade, mover, falling plate, and practical events. not the PPC. not interested in the speed events, if I was I would probably just shoot IDPA. like everybody else.


Last edited by robert84010 on Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Blsi2600 Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:50 pm

NRA has no involvement in any of the Distinguished programs.  

All above are CMP, Military or Law Enforcement issues.

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Post by Axehandle Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:00 am

Sounds like the military EIC programs just might be mucked up..   FWIW I'll repeat that in my day the AF dumped combat and bullseye EIC points in one bucket.  There was one USAF distinguished pistol shot badge.

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