Calling the Shot 201 (advanced)

First topic message reminder :

I've been meaning to start a thread about "how to call the shot", but there are a zillion posts and videos about it all over the internet, and in books too.  Everyone of them explains "how to do it" and "what it means", but none of that is any help for someone like me, who "just doesn't get it".  I just see a blur.

• I'm pretty sure I don't blink.
  
• Flinching is under control.
  
• I'm shooting light loads.
  
• I think my vision is adequate
  
  
• ...but it's all a blur when the gun fires.
  

I made one last attempt today to find an answer before posting, and this time, Eureka!  I found what I wanted, and a whole lot more.

This is the page for the blog:
http://re-gun.com/2012/02/
Suggestion - scroll to near the bottom, "How the eye sees", and read the rest from bottom to top.
Lots of slow motion videos too, which I watched on YouTube at 1/4 speed to make them even slower.


For the first time I can understand what I'm supposed to see, and while I can't try any of it until January, I think I know enough now to be able to see what the rest of you do.    I was wrong - I thought I had "slow eyes", but apparently that's not the case at all.  There are suggestions on how to get into seeing things when you can't (like me).  I figure once I learn how to do it, I'll get better and do it naturally - like learning how to ride a bicycle.

The last post has something else I'm curious about - maybe I should ask in the reloading section, but according to the author, the type of powder you use can change how well you see the sights to call your shot.

I will be surprised if the camera captures the same kind of memory imprint of that 'snapshot'.

I didn't reread the thread to see if this was mentioned, but it bears repeating anyway:

With open sights call the shots in regards to the sights, not the target.  The position of the front sight in the rear is the determining factor.  There are other aspects of this call besides the 1/1000 still shot image, but that is the major one to work on first.

If you have, or can get a hold of, the USAMU Pistol Training Guide, now called the Advanced Pistol Guide, look over chapter 2 for a more in depth reference.

Jack H wrote:I will be surprised if the camera captures the same kind of memory imprint of that 'snapshot'.

My goal, if I can pull it off, is to capture a video, not a snapshot.  If I can film it at 120 fps, maybe the appropriate "snapshot" will be one of those frames.  

On the other hand, having read Dave's article (https://web.archive.org/web/20161017223913/http://re-gun.com/2012/02/how-the-eyes-see/), I no longer think that the eye captures any snapshot.  I was wrong about that.  It's the brain that needs to put a snapshot together, based on the information from all the eye cells sending their own little piece of information to the brain.

Video camera has no such problem.  It will capture 120 snapshots every second, and I'll select the one that shows things the best.  

Having thought about it some more, while it may be a fun thing to do, it's not going to help me, other than in knowing exactly what I'm trying to "see", and thanks to this discussion, I already have that.



A little but more here, just an explanation of where I went wrong.  I thought "the eye" sent a chunk of information to the brain, many times a second, and all I had to do was capture that one snapshot that showed the front sight at the time the gun fired. There is no such thing.  Every cell in the eye is doing its own thing, on whatever timeline it follows, and the brain turns that data into my "memory" of what I saw.  It is in no way like a film or digital camera, which is what I used to think it was similar to.  What I'm writing here will sound pretty silly, unless/until you read the article about how the eye actually sees.


Thanks to all of you for your help!!
When I get back to shooting, I'll be trying out these ideas.

I have to ask how this help you actually perform the shot.

Jack H wrote:I have to ask how this help you actually perform the shot.

It probably won't.  At least I don't think it will.

I would like to see what is going on, and I want to do another video aimed at me with the gun, so I can see for myself what I'm actually doing, rather than what I think I'm doing.  Dave suggested that.

I read all the good posts and it occurs to me that I can separate the training of my call into 2 segments.  I'm using a dot.  I'm accurate in direction and magnitude (not which scoring ring) around 50% of my calls.

1) where was the dot a couple milliseconds ago and which direction was it moving as I aim at a NRA target. (note, no trigger).  Let's call this "seeing the dot in relationship to the target"
2) where does the dot move due to trigger "release" when dry firing on a blank wall?  Let's call this "setting my timing memory"

I'm going to see if those separate activities help my with calling accuracy.

I’ve been following this and think it’s getting out of hand. Technology will not make you a better shooter, fundamentals make you a better shooter. Quit chasing mastery of calling shots through a gimmick. Assuming the fundamentals are known, you have a sight picture (dot/irons). Watch the sights before the shot breaks. If dead nuts perfect it should be perfect! If it moves to the left slightly it could be a 10 to the left or a 9, etc.  Through practice we learn what the location of that movement to the left is; 8, 9, 10, etc. No photo, video or SCATT trainer is going to teach you how to call a shot. You have to see it with your eye when it happens. As far as I’m concerned we see in real time when shooting. You can get anal about it but it doesn’t change the fact that to shoot a 10 you have to know what it looks like and feels like. Only live shooting and dry practice develops this skill. There are training aids but they are no substitute for doing it for real. Going back and watching a video or analyzing a SCATT session is all in the past! Think about it? When you shoot the shot, call the shot. It’s an immediate thing. Shooting your hold is purely that, shooting your hold. If you can only hold 8 ring at 50 yards just accept it and strive to break your shots within your hold. Doesn’t mean you will only shoot 8’s, you will be in the 9 & 10 ring as well. But you should still be able to call your shots! I can shoot a PERFECT 8 and call it an 8. Doesn’t mean it was a bad shot, it means I had my sights aligned and I happened to be aiming at the 8 ring when the shot broke. I’m human and can’t hold 10 ring all the time for whatever reason. Herschel Anderson didn’t have all this modern distraction when he shot 2680. He focused on mastery of the fundamentals and applied them. So I recommend to just keep it simple and spend more time dry firing and shooting then coming up with clever ways to call a shot. It’s really quite simple. And the ADVANCED title of this post. No such thing as advanced, the basic fundamentals are more than enough to master calling shots. If your sights/gun moves to the left during execution of a shot it could be from hold, NPOA is off, wind, trigger squeeze, etc. But it still moved. If you’re not getting groups I guarantee it’s your trigger squeeze. Everything else (fundamental errors) will still group; trigger control is primary error for not getting a group.
Jon

I understand.  Thanks for posting that.  I'll forget about all this, continue to dry fire, and go back to the range when I get home.  Maybe after reading this though, I'll find that I actually can call my shots, but that's just a side issue.  The real thing, as you pointed out, is the "doing".

Jon Eulette wrote:........ Only live shooting and dry practice develops this skill. .......

Update.   After all this time with a LOT of dry-fire, with a S&W Model 41, I can now tell and remember where the dot was for every dry-fire shot I take.  100%.  Good and bad.  Now I will re-read this discussion, and starting tomorrow, compare what I think I shot, with where the hole ended up.  

It helps a lot that thanks to Brian's advice of applying pressure to the trigger while aiming, the dot slowed down, and I can not only follow where it goes, but remember where it was.  New glasses helped.  Sorry it took me so long.  You guys weren't wasting your time, it just took me forever to train my eye/brain to be able to do it.  That, and some EXCELLENT advice from people here.

My plan is to take a pad with me to the range, shoot one shot at a time, mark the pad where I expect the hold to be, then with binoculars check where it actually is, and compare.


Chris, Jon, and others - thanks for being so patient with me.

My GOD! It IS rocket science!!!!

My GOD! It IS rocket science!!!!

I told you it was, and you would not listen! Glad the afterburner finally kicked in!!