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Low First Shot

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robert84010
Jon Eulette
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Low First Shot Empty Low First Shot

Post by JNW1 3/1/2018, 10:33 pm

Hello,
I shoot 50 foot and 75 foot .22 gallery leagues as well as several centerfire “combat” leagues that involve shooting with strong hand and both hands at various distances.  All of this shooting requires a low gun start.  With all my guns in these games I have a tendency to shoot my first shot in a string low.  My follow up shots usually form a pretty good group.  This happens with both open sights and red dots.  I don’t know how to fix this.  Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Jeff

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Post by Bullseye_Stan 3/2/2018, 6:08 am

Being originally from Kentucky, I'll suggest you use some 'Kentucky windage' and aim a bit higher on the first shot.  Good luck and have fun!

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Post by willnewton 3/2/2018, 7:17 am

My first guess would be that you might not be establishing your actual shooting grip until after the first shot.

You lift, fire, the gun moves itself around, your grip tension changes, your body reacts, muscles tense and you make slight position shifts to get used to it.  On the follow up shots you are settled in and ready to shoot.

Try it out.  Load six, fire one shot off to the side (safely), then shoot five into the target, without changing your grip or body and see what happens.

Pay attention to where the gun is at in your hand after firing and where the tension is in your grip and next time start with it in that position.

You also have time to dry fire a shot, so take it. Rack the unloaded pistol, then load the mag, dry fire, THEN rack to load a round and fire your string. You have time to do this as the range commands run “Is the line ready?” and it does not violate any rules, as long as the gun doesn’t actually fire a bullet.

B. Zins called this “the gift of a free dry fire” available before every string.
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Post by Wobbley 3/2/2018, 8:46 am

It could just be this.
Low First Shot 67613410
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Post by jmdavis 3/2/2018, 1:32 pm

willnewton. wrote:
You also have time to dry fire a shot, so take it.  Rack the unloaded pistol, then load the mag, dry fire, THEN rack to load a round and fire your string.  You have time to do this as the range commands run “Is the line ready?” and it does not violate any rules, as long as the gun doesn’t actually fire a bullet.

B. Zins called this “the gift of a free dry fire” available before every string.

In addition to saving a shot this can save a string. Dryfire any time that you can in a match.
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Post by JNW1 3/2/2018, 1:34 pm

This isn't bullseye that I'm shooting - no time for dry fire.

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Post by jmdavis 3/2/2018, 1:49 pm

I thought you Shot 50 foot and 25 yard leagues and had the same issue.
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Post by Boris_La 3/2/2018, 2:07 pm

I have the same issue with BE shooting at 50yards and only with my 9mm. 45ACP and 22 are fine as well as any pistol in sustained fire at 25yards. I am still investigating the magazines and first round loading vs loading next rounds by recoil spring. Until I have the definite answer, I am just releasing the first slow-fire with this pistol at 9 ring 12 O'clock.


Last edited by Boris_La on 3/2/2018, 2:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Chris Miceli 3/2/2018, 2:08 pm

JNW1 wrote:This isn't bullseye that I'm shooting - no time for dry fire.
hmmmm....  i know bullseye shooters are the best but why are you here then?


Last edited by Chris Miceli on 3/2/2018, 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by STEVE SAMELAK 3/2/2018, 2:35 pm

My GUESS  is that you are getting to excited about drawing and addressing the target.
Slow down on the first shot and be SURE the sights are where they need to be.
Unless you're going to get a bonus or penalty for time, use it to your advantage.
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Post by Aprilian 3/2/2018, 2:45 pm

Load 5.  Do 5 separate first shot drills without changing the magazine ( or bench rest it).  That will tell you whether there is a pistol component or technique issue.
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Post by Jon Eulette 3/2/2018, 2:49 pm

My educated guess is that as your lifting the pistol you are not applying trigger pressure until you have a sight picture on the bullseye. As a result you are jerking your first shot low. I recommend that you learn how to start your squeeze as you lift and glide into the bullseye and break the shot. It should be done with finesse.
Jon
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Post by robert84010 3/2/2018, 5:02 pm

You might be taking your eyes off the front sight and looking at the target to see if you are in the middle and then like Jon said jerking the trigger. Or maybe you aren't looking at the front sight for the first shot and not realizing it. As someone mentioned try dryfiring the process to determine what you are doing. You are allowed to dryfire before or after a match, right?
The first shot is the hardest and the key to international rapid fire events that start from a low ready. training the lift and timely first shot is where most training is concentrated.

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Post by JNW1 3/2/2018, 9:08 pm

Thanks for the responses.  The leagues I shoot are modified NRA games that are available here in Minnesota.  The 50 foot and 75 foot .22 leagues are shot using the bullseye targets, but we are allowed to shoot with both hands.  I know that is blasphemy here.  The centerfire combat leagues are shot at 10, 21 and 50 feet with a 6 shot strings shot in 5-15 seconds depending on the distance and which hand you are shooting with.  I’ve never seen anyone dry fire in my leagues.  There’s enough time to do it during the slow fire section in the .22 leagues where they give us 2 minutes for 10 shots.  There’s limited precision pistol here and I’m going to try it this year at Oakdale Gun Club.  I just recently discovered them.  If you live where there’s a lot of precision pistol available you are fortunate.
I’m on this website because no one knows more about shooting a handgun accurately then the folks here.  I hope I’m still welcome.  The action shooting folks consider a 4” group in the A zone good enough and it is for their game.  I want to shoot more accurately than that.
I think Jon has identified my problem.  All of my shooting is from a low start and I have very little pressure on the trigger as I am bringing the gun up.  I think I’m snatching the first shot and after that since I’m already on the trigger the following shots are good.  More stuff to work on.  I really appreciate the information here and hope I’m allowed to participate even though I’m not an official bullseye shooter, yet.
Jeff


Last edited by JNW1 on 3/2/2018, 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarification)

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Post by Jon Eulette 3/2/2018, 10:10 pm

Jeff you are definately welcome here. We can be BE snobs at times so dont let that get to ya! No better place to learn than here! Chris is a young whippersnapper with lots of piss & vinegar.......so don't mind him Wink
Jon
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Post by Chris Miceli 3/2/2018, 10:21 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Jeff you are definately welcome here. We can be BE snobs at times so dont let that get to ya! No better place to learn than here! Chris is a young whippersnapper with lots of piss & vinegar.......so don't mind him Wink
Jon
Smile

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Post by john bickar 3/2/2018, 10:52 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:Jeff you are definately welcome here. We can be BE snobs at times so dont let that get to ya! No better place to learn than here! Chris is a young whippersnapper with lots of piss & vinegar.......so don't mind him Wink
Jon
Smile
Speaking of bullseye snobs, If we want Chris to slow his roll, we can tell him that I accomplished everything that's in his signature before I could even drink legally... Laughing

Speaking of snobs, it's spelled "definitely", Jon!!!
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Post by LenV 3/2/2018, 11:45 pm

I have a different theory. I think your problem is gravity/inertia. To be precise I think the act of raising the pistol is causing the barrel to dip. A body at rest tends to stay at rest etc etc. The faster you try to raise the pistol the more the end of the barrel is going to try to dip. So the front sight is going to lag from your normal sight picture even if you think your gripping it the same. When you fire a shot and the pistol recoils you find the sights coming back down to the target. The lift is the only time you have to fight gravity instead of gravity bringing the sights back in line. I see two possible solutions for you. 1. Lift slower. 2. Lift faster and come up past target and let pistol settle back down to target.  Personally I like the slower lift. YMMV and this is just my opinion..

Len
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Post by Chris Miceli 3/3/2018, 12:06 am

john bickar wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:Jeff you are definately welcome here. We can be BE snobs at times so dont let that get to ya! No better place to learn than here! Chris is a young whippersnapper with lots of piss & vinegar.......so don't mind him Wink
Jon
Smile
Speaking of bullseye snobs, If we want Chris to slow his roll, we can tell him that I accomplished everything that's in his signature before I could even drink legally... Laughing

Speaking of snobs, it's spelled "definitely", Jon!!!
not bad, not bad john.. but i got some time to beat your 2650 timeline :}

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Post by john bickar 3/3/2018, 10:23 am

Chris Miceli wrote:
john bickar wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:Jeff you are definately welcome here. We can be BE snobs at times so dont let that get to ya! No better place to learn than here! Chris is a young whippersnapper with lots of piss & vinegar.......so don't mind him Wink
Jon
Smile
Speaking of bullseye snobs, If we want Chris to slow his roll, we can tell him that I accomplished everything that's in his signature before I could even drink legally... Laughing

Speaking of snobs, it's spelled "definitely", Jon!!!
not bad, not bad john.. but i got some time to beat your 2650 timeline :}

Zing! Laughing
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Post by Sa-tevp 3/3/2018, 2:24 pm

I think this guy from Siberia knew a few things about The Lift and how to get off the first shot:

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Post by james r chapman 3/3/2018, 3:21 pm

As an old PPC shooter, I was often told your first shot sets the rythm for the rest of the shots. Make sure of your grip, sight picture and trigger squeeze even in Double Action.
It's easy to drop the muzzle on that first shot in D.A.

After shooting Bullseye, I've found we had a world of time in PPC.
It's just the bodies not quite as willing to kneel, sit, and lay down and try and get up!
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Post by john bickar 3/3/2018, 4:59 pm

Now that I've taken the time to bust my buddies' chops a little, I can try to be helpful.

I'm still not clear which event you're shooting, but I know a little about the lift and first shot from ISSF events.

Align on the target
Take up the first stage 
Lower into the ready position, keeping your eyes on the target 
Measure the time until the signal to fire with your breathing 
When the signal to commence fire is given:
SNAP! to the bottom of the target frame and start squeezing the second stage
Glide into the black while squeezing the remainder of the second stage
Break the shot within your minimum arc of movement 
Recover and repeat 5x
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