New Shooter Needs Advice

Hi Folks,

I am brand new to this sport and haven't shot a match yet.  I have the following equipment: S&W Mod. 41 and a SA TRP which has been customized completely mainly by Wilson and Springfield for accuracy and reliability.  I am a little nervous about competing as I don't want to do this with red dots.  I am 67 years old and can see just fine with my specs and pretty good without them and would like to shoot metallic sights.  I am not a reloader and need advice on what ammo to use for the .45.  I am thinking of CCI Green Tag for the rimfire.  I don't understand the three gun requirement and have heard that some folks shoot all centerfire with the .45 ACP?  I am not extremely competitive but would like to do my best in this area and would really appreciate any advice you could pass on to this uninitiated "newby".

Thanks!
Gary

Regular cci standard velocity paperbox model 0035, for 45 do you want lead or jacketed ?

A 2700 consists of (3) 900s. 22lr,centerfire, and 45. Since a 45 is a centerfire you can use it for both parts of the match.

nothing wrong with using iron sights.. All time record score was done with them

Atlanta Arms or Zero 45 ammo would be my choice if you don't want to reload.. Yes the 45 is used most often in both the centerfire and 45 courses of fire.. it just simplifies the process.

for the 22 CCI standard is generally better than Green tag and cheaper. it will shoot better than you to start with

if you have a local club that shoots BE my best advice is to simply stop over before a match and talk with the range officer and the shooters.. You will find them more than helpful I bet.. stick around and watch the match a bit.. heck I bet they will get you to shoot a bit.

It's a friendly sport

Post your location and someone might be close enough to help you through your first match.   Someone did that for me.

(1)  Open sights are ok if you can see the front sight clearly (perfectly).  If not, then get some glasses that help you do so.
(2)  Find out what type of ammo your model .41 likes, that is shoots reliably and accurately.  CCI Green tag is expensive for what it is in my opinion.  
(3)  If you want to learn how to shoot precision pistol (bullseye), clean the .45 well, put it in a nice soft hand gun case and put it in the safe until you have shot some bullseye matches, say a year or so.  Just shoot the .22 for matches, most will let you shoot all 3 aggegrates with the .22.
(4)  Save the money and time spent shooting the .45 training to shoot well and saving for a reloader.

You might want to read this, or not.  

Good luck and welcome to shooting bullseye!

Cecil

Following up on Cecil’s comments.  

22 ammunition.  CCI Green Tag is pricey for what it is.  For the money there are better choices in Lapua and Eley and S-K.  CCI standard velocity is fine for training and league shooting.  Buy CCI SV by the case.  Norma TAC 22 and Norma Match 22 is essentially S-K Standard Plus and Midway has been having special deals on Norma 22 ammo lately.  Buy  a brick of that and if your pistol likes it, use that to gauge your progress periodically and use it in matches.  

For training,  follow the USMC workbook.  While some might quibble with a few of the exercises, it is a systematic and proven method of training.  It starts with 22 Up to simulating a 900 Point match.  If you shoot 100 rounds a day it will take you several months to complete the 22 portion.  You can get a copy here http://www.ssppl.org/pdfs/usmcpistolteamworkbook.pdf.   You can get a hard copy here As well as training targets that don’t have scoring rings for group shooting.  http://www.distinguishedprecision.com/X-Count-Training-Systems_c_175.html.  

For 45 ammo.  You’ll find that 45 ammo is either way too hotly loaded for comfortable shooting or so expensive and scarce that you will not be able to train effectively.  So you’ll need to reload.  Start with 1000 Starline brass cases, 1000 primers, a pound of bullseye powder, 1000 200 grain SWC Hornady lead bullets, and a Lee single stage press and load them up while training with the 22.  Your load will be somewhat individual to your gun but 4.2 grains is a place to start.  

Watch the Brian Zins videos on how to grip and other topics here.  https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/1/9/video-brian-zins-explains-how-to-take-your-pistol-grip-to-a-whole-new-level/

I really strongly suggest that you put a dot on your 22 as it allows you to see your holding and trigger control better than iron sights.  Get a tube style dot not a reflex dot.

Dry fire.  A lot.  When dry firing your 41 use a plastic wall anchor in the chamber changing them every 5 hits.  Dry fire the 45 daily.  You can even dry fire just holding the pistol in your hand while watchingTV.. your trying to learn your trigger intimately.

Gary,  I just read what Cecil shared, it will get you a long way on your path!  Cecil is one of the great forum members who can explain what we new shooters need (but would sometimes rather gloss over).

Again another +1 on CR’s post. When I started shooting precision pistol sports I was shooting muzzleloading pistols. But even though that’s the sport I wanted to go in to, I didn’t start with muzzleloaders. My mentor had me shoot 25 yards only and with a 22. Nothing else. 

The intent was to learn how to fire a well aimed shot, to learn the fundamentals. When I could hold black, only then was I permitted to go on and try my hand at 50 yards. And I wasn’t allowed to start work with the match guns (the muzzleloaders) until I could hold black at 50 yards with an occasionally bad shot. 

The 22 allowed me to learn how to shoot. Learning how to shoot muzzleloaders is a whole new ball of wax because you have to learn the loading techniques and maintenance techniques and regiments that goes along with shooting the gun so that you can get the gun to perform through out the match with out it having problems. 

I would not worry about the 45 right away. When I made the switch to Bullseye from Muzzleloaders I shot 22 only for a few matches to get my bearings as to how a match was run, what the course of fire was like, etc. It’s a different shooting style compared to a sport completely based on slow fire (muzzleloaders). 

Build a familiarity with shooting, matches, and learning the fundamentals through the 22. CCI Standard Velocity is the Golden Standard for many. Shoots good enough for many and is fairly affordable. Other options might be available but CCI Standard Velocity is the “go to” for many. Right now I’m working with a case of Aguila. Not the best stuff I’ve ever shot but good for training and it was cheap.

Good luck and enjoy.

CR10X wrote:(3)  If you want to learn how to shoot precision pistol (bullseye), clean the .45 well, put it in a nice soft hand gun case and put it in the safe until you have shot some bullseye matches, say a year or so.  Just shoot the .22 for matches, most will let you shoot all 3 aggegrates with the .22.
(4)  Save the money and time spent shooting the .45 training to shoot well and saving for a reloader.

This might make me unpopular but WTH...

If this is the correct way forward, then everyone promoting Bullseye needs to put the focus on .22 2700 matches and make them a focus. Who's interested in participating in something that's supported by "most" while really wanting to participate fully?
People new to the sport need an outlet to practice and compete. Saying to not bother until you're good enough in one part or have the time and interest enough to start reloading sounds very exclusionary and elitist IMO. And as I pondered this response I decided there's no other way to say it. Telling someone who is eager to participate, who has bought equipment to do so, and is just looking for that last bit of advice and support to try, to put the equipment down and get back in line is could be the WORST advice and WORST way to promote participation.
How popular would swimming and diving be if kids were told to put the goggles away until they trained some of the fat away?
For a sport to thrive and survive, you need grass roots competition and involvement that doesn't require the time and investment of higher level competition. A good solid base of people having fun should develop the people who take it that much more seriously and begin to train obsessively and support the higher echelons of competition. There are far more people who want to go out and PARTICIPATE. Training for many (most?) comes after finding enjoyment and proficiency in a sport or activity.
Would a year or so of .22lr 2700s encourage someone to get better to play with the rest of the "big league"? Or would it drive people away boring them? And what's the magic score to obtain before deciding whether to "move up" or decide you're not good enough?
I suppose the evidence that Bullseye in general really doesn't have a strong grass roots is the fact target weight and velocity ammo is so rare and expensive. If every club that ran competitions had a big push to encourage everyone to shoot 45 and some sponsor came on board to make 45 available, a market for 45ACP target ammo could be grown.
Personally, I'd rather compete with everyone in a main event and come in an "also ran" finishing position than compete in an "also-ran" division.
Everyone should certainly be encouraged to strive for High Master, and reaching there might require equipment and budget beyond the current state of the shooter, but there should be no shame and instead a huge amount of encouragement and support for people to join and shoot (perhaps for their entire shooting careers) within their budget, with the equipment they have, at the Marksman level.
It's people like them and idiots like me that will keep the firing line filled on competition day.

To Gary:
I may be an unskilled and inexperienced idiot with no competition experience. But my advice is go out and have fun! 45ACP is expensive to feed, but shoot what you enjoy. Maybe shoot a cheaper centerfire calibre for practice?
In Canada, where there are competitions, we only shoot 1800s (.22 and CF, no 45), so my plan:
Continue to practice and concentrate on my basics with my .22 and rent the range 9mm far more than the 45, and save up for a 9mm of my own. 
Why 9mm? Because our elitist impossible to find ammo used by everyone who is "really serious" is .32 long, while 9mm is accepted at Bullseye and ISSF competitions and WAY cheaper.
The immediate goal, maintain and improve my barely Sharpshooter .22 skills (in all honesty I rate no better than a consistently high Marksman) while achieving shooting one-handed CF at regulation distance, and get all on target (maybe even keep them all close to the black ).
If I finally find (or start) a competition near by, I might just forget the "save up" part and buy whatever random serviceable 9mm comes to hand in time to shoot a few times (ensure that I can shoot the target) and then go to the competition.
One worry I have, and maybe one you might consider training for and one I certainly have to prepare for, is whether I can last the length of competition shooting the number of shots required.
Will I win competitions or ever make High Master? Probably quite impossible for the first, and only possible if I enjoy the sport and then focus a LOT for the second. But I'll have fun and learn from the experience.
If I enjoy competition, I'll sign up for every competition I can find. And start saving up for a .45 and looking across the border at NRA2700s. And when I find one, I'll go shoot my .22, my 9mm (that I will have acquired by then, and possibly a ratty .45 that I've barely used (similar to the scenario with the 9mm).
And if I have enough fun to think that winning and advancing would be MORE fun I'll devote more time and energy to training, reloading, etc.

CR10X wrote:(1)  Open sights are ok if you can see the front sight clearly (perfectly).  If not, then get some glasses that help you do so.
(2)  Find out what type of ammo your model .41 likes, that is shoots reliably and accurately.  CCI Green tag is expensive for what it is in my opinion.  
(3)  If you want to learn how to shoot precision pistol (bullseye), clean the .45 well, put it in a nice soft hand gun case and put it in the safe until you have shot some bullseye matches, say a year or so.  Just shoot the .22 for matches, most will let you shoot all 3 aggegrates with the .22.
(4)  Save the money and time spent shooting the .45 training to shoot well and saving for a reloader.

You might want to read this, or not.  

Good luck and welcome to shooting bullseye!

Cecil

This is great advice!  I'd say stay away from the 45 until you have the fundamentals down pat and your confidence built up.  For those that train and dry fire a lot it might only be a few months and for those that don't train or dry fire it could be a year or more. 
- Dave

I can tell you I tried shooting 45 right off the bat. And it was rough. I began to hate the 45 and consider shooting just 22 only. I didn’t do well at all which was frustrating because I was good with the 22. So I stuck with the 22 and practiced here and there with the 45 and researched what I needed in terms of modifications and learned what I could about shooting the 45. Eventually I got into shooting the 45 in matches. I don’t think we’re trying to exclude people - in fact quite opposite! We want anyone and everyone to participate that wants to. But it simply may be better in the long run to learn on a 22 first then add in a 45 later. Reasons listed above. Learn the fundamentals on a gun that is easy to control with ammunition that’s affordable. The 45 can drag you down in the beginning and may make you chase your tail trying to figure it out. Learn fundamentals, learn the sport. And this may not take a year. Might take half a year. I think a shooter should jump in on the 45 when he or she feels ready but I also feel a shooter will enjoy the sport more if the shooter can learn more sooner. The 45 too soon could be a hinderance.

One must consider one's desires.  I shoot with a lot of league members that are there just to send a few rounds down range once a week.  Sure, they'd like to shoot better, but they aren't interested in homework.  They still enjoy themselves and that's fine.

I've shot with and coached the USAF Team for over twenty years and I want them to be competitive.  We don't actually get together much, so I have to rely a lot on them working with local peers.  I prefer they reach ~840 with their .22 before ever shooting the .45.  Why?  Because I want them to learn good habits instead of trying to correct bad habits.  How long does it take?  For some, it has been an impossible task.  But, most of them that put in the effort, met the 840 in a short period of time.  One of my members made it to Master scores and the primary team within his first year by working up through the .22 first.**

I and many other MAs and HMs, as well as others, will usually suggest things based on thinking that an individual wants to shoot well and compete well.  These are just suggestions.  Shoot how you want.  There are many Marksmen here who are having lots of fun.

Here's something to think about to really get you going:

If you are just starting out and want to improve, think of this:

The Rapid Fire stage is defined as five shots in ten seconds.  I suggest that if you aren't shooting five black shots in ten seconds, don't spray all five all over the place.  Start with one or two shots - even load your mags that way.  If that works, then add another.  A league is a good place to do this, but training is the best.  (You can find my Progressive Drill described in the archives, if interested in this type of training.)  Sure, your score will look like crap, at first.  But, if you learn to shoot good shots first and then to shoot them in the time limits, you'll blow past those that insist on shooting five shots all over the place just to make the time limit.

**Can you get there without focusing on the .22 first?  Sure!  Personally, I began with the .45, shooting full power hard ball ammunition.  I made High Master in only about twelve years.  Some of the shooters from the early years of USAF competition still believe this to be the best training - bury yourself in .45 brass.  But, they had a lot of .45 ammunition and it was their job to learn to shoot and compete well.

Several darn good shooters giving better advice about how to get good than I ever could. The only thing I'll add that might be of use is this:

Don't wait until you are good enough to shoot a match before you do so!

Find a match and go shoot. Even if you come in last you'll meet some folks that can likely help you get better, the match experience itself will likely make you better. Worst that can happen is that you have some fun with the equipment you've already bought.

I like the idea of people shooting 22lr first before 45acp but the 45acp will identify new shooter habits early because it is less forgiving so that is a toss up. 

In your first match I would defiantly shoot it 22lr only as you will be shooting in the Master class. Also shooting 22lr is practical in a first match , less things to worry about. 

Familiarize your self with the stages in the match and how to score properly because that will help you focus on shooting. 

I am running beginner matches for people that have never shot a match before so they can rehearse a match before shooting a real one.  I also put together a slide deck that reviews vital points of a match such as safety, range commands and scoring. If you know what to expect it is less overwhelming. 

If you like the M41 that should be good, few target 22lr are better its just a matter of preference and a well tuned customized M41 is hard to beat. At some point it may make sense to send it to Sams or TenX for a barrel job and extractor and breach face tune up. Most will not need a trigger job. 

Little tricks for the M41, get some light recoil springs 6.5 or 6. and put a small drop of lube on the first round that will help with feeding. 

For 45acp, what you have sounds like it is fine. It may not be a BE gun but as long as it hold 3 or 4 inches at 50 yards it is good enough to take you to the sharpshooter or expert class. 

If you can see the sights  and they are adjustable for windage and elevation then you are GTG. Dots teach really bad habits if you do not have a good mentor.

Ed Hall wrote:I prefer they reach ~840 with their .22 before ever shooting the .45.  Why?  Because I want them to learn good habits instead of trying to correct bad habits.  How long does it take?  For some, it has been an impossible task.  But, most of them that put in the effort, met the 840 in a short period of time.  One of my members made it to Master scores and the primary team within his first year by working up through the .22 first.**

Doing this really would have helped me a lot. I am struggling through shooting three different guns (yes, I just *had* to have a 38 special centerfire gun) and am just now getting to the point where I can clean sustained fire targets with my 22. I try to train the centerfire and 45 with what I succeed at with the 22, but it is really halting progress. In retrospect, this is probably the best advise you will find.

GaryWWhite wrote:Hi Folks,

I am brand new to this sport and haven't shot a match yet.  I have the following equipment: S&W Mod. 41 and a SA TRP which has been customized completely mainly by Wilson and Springfield for accuracy and reliability.  I am a little nervous about competing as I don't want to do this with red dots.  I am 67 years old and can see just fine with my specs and pretty good without them and would like to shoot metallic sights.  I am not a reloader and need advice on what ammo to use for the .45.  I am thinking of CCI Green Tag for the rimfire.  I don't understand the three gun requirement and have heard that some folks shoot all centerfire with the .45 ACP?  I am not extremely competitive but would like to do my best in this area and would really appreciate any advice you could pass on to this uninitiated "newby".

Thanks!
Gary

CCI Standard Velocity is usually the recommended ammo for the S&W model 41 and it is highly likely that it, in your pistol, is capable of scoring a 10 for each shot at all distances. Stay with the irons. With your good eyesight, iron sights will do the job. Since the .45 ACP pistol meets all the rules for centerfire, most people choose to use it for both centerfire matches and .45 matches. They figure that way, there are only two pistols that they have to learn to shoot. Finding ammo that will function reliably in your SA TRP without changing the recoil spring may be a challenge. I'd probably try some of this ammo to start: http://www.rozedist.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=RZD&Product_Code=R724-A&Category_Code=ZBA-45ACP. You might rather want to start with a 200 gr. SWC swaged lead bullet. You can find them elsewhere on their website. I recommend their "RELOADED" ammo, for it's high quality and low cost. Here's a great website with a plethora of information about the sport: http://bullseyepistol.com

So sorry for the wait to respond to you guys.  I feel humbled that a bunch of super qualified competitors would reach out to me.  Here's what is going on:  I felt I would add a Ultradot to the Mod. 41 and was very pleased that I did. I've never shot so well in my life! Right now, I have put out another post as to whether I should get another Ultradot for my SA TRP?  I will be shooting my first ever match on June 24th and without match ammo for the .45.  My wife says if I really enjoy Bullseye that I can get some reloading equipment.  Hey, I've been married 45 years and have to pick my fights! lol  I've done a lot of research on reloading and feel that it will be good for me as it will have me shooting more.  I realize that reloading will really not save me any money but want to be competitive with my reloads. Oh, BTW, I shot CCI SV in the Mod 41 and it is a tack driver. Thanks for all the great information.  Looks like I'm going to jump in head first by using the .45 in competition.  Maybe, after I take a good licking at my first match, will resign myself to the rimfire for a good period of time before picking up the .45 again.  Just sayin!!

Great!

Gary, you might try reaching out to Jeff Schotland, Paul Noles or Kent Finlay. They would know what is going on in your area .

The advantage of starting with iron sights is that the pistol's movement is less visible and so it's psychologically easier to commit to a smooth, firm trigger press.

Trigger control is crucial. You have to accept that the pistol will always be moving and that you have to start applying force to the trigger BEFORE your sight picture looks "good enough". When people talk about sight alignment and trigger control being fundamental, remember that you have to do both things at the same time.