"Failure to load" issue.

First topic message reminder :

I had two choices for today, clean my guns, then go to the range, or go to the range first and then clean.  It's a beautiful day, so I headed to the range, knowing I need to clean as soon as I got back (which is now delayed, as I'm typing in this report).

For 40 shots, my Salyer mostly worked fine, but twice it had a "failure to load".  The slide didn't close all the way, as a bullet hadn't loaded properly.  Last time this happened, it meant cleaning, which eliminated the problem.  Today I was trying to shoot at 50 yards (first time ever), so I finished up, and decided to shoot both the Salyer and my M-52 10 rounds each, at 25 yards.  

Salyer first.  After two or three rounds, I had the same loading problem - I released the slide lock, but the gun didn't go all the way into battery.  The round didn't go all the way "in".   So, I removed the magazine, cycled the slide, the bullet came out, and tried again.  Put magazine back in gun, released the slide again, and had the same problem except this time when I cycled the slide the bullet didn't come out.

So, the magazine came out again, and I tried to insert one of those plastic tie straps that we use to demonstrate that the gun is not ready to fire.  It only went maybe half an inch into the barrel.  I tried the same thing from the front end of the barrel, same problem.  I put a brass "Range Rod" it in from the front, and the (live) round easily came out.  The bullet didn't show any funny marks on it, no dents, nothing seemed "wrong".

I was about to pack up and go home, but after thinking it over, I couldn't see anything wrong or damaged.  I loaded and fired two test rounds, one at a time, and they fired normally.  So I fired the rest of my ten rounds, including the round that caused the original problem.  

I didn't want to go home on this as my last experience for the day.  The target was very good (for me), so I shot ten rounds into another bull using my M-52, and did the best I've ever done with that gun.  So, end result, I went home on a very positive note.

For the future, any time I have a loading issue, even if I know there is no problem, I will check the barrel for obstructions.  Better to waste 15 seconds needlessly, than to risk having a major "oops" moment.  I've got the forums to thank for this, and so many other ideas.  I read a lot, and maybe post more than I should, but I learn SO much that isn't so readily available in books, magazines, and videos.

Keyholed wrote:(2) The cartridges are likely sticking in the chamber because they're loaded just a smidge too long. If they're loaded way too long, they'd stick all the time, the slide would jam shut, and when you finally pried it open the extractor would pull the case off the stuck bullet. Instead, they're only sort've sticking, some of the time, when the gun gets dirty.

This was reloaded ammo from someone at our club.  I never measured any of it, so I don't know if this contributed to the problem or not, but lots of people are buying his ammo, and I haven't heard of any complaints.

I can't do anything about the past, but I have a 45 case gage, and no reason not to check every round I load, at least until I'm sure they're coming out OK.  I need to switch the press over from 38 to 45, but I've got a trip coming up before I can do that.

Yes, gun was quite dirty.  ....and yes, I was thinking they were getting into the barrel, which thinking about it now doesn't make sense.  It makes perfect sense for the round to be stuck somehow in the chamber.  Again, thanks!

If your Sayler has a tight chamber, the case gauge may pass a round which will not go into the barrel's chamber.  I would suggest making a few dummy rounds with minimal case bell reduction and finding one which barely goes into the gauge.  My guess is that that round which just barely passes the guage, will not plunk into your chamber.

If your chamber is tighter than all the other's guns who are shooting the same reloads, that might explain their different results.

Aprilian wrote:....If your Sayler has a tight chamber.......

I guess anything is possible, but since I started shooting this gun in late February, with all the boxes of reloaded ammo I've bought to shoot with it, it never happened before.   For a while, that was 100 to 150 rounds a week.  This is the only time I've had this problem, but when the gun is dirty, I have had cartridges that failed to load from the magazine into the gun.  After gun cleaning, no problem.

I've got a trip coming up soon, but when I start shooting the Salyer again, it will be with my own reloaded ammunition, and I'll check those things that I know how to check with this: 


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Lyman Pistol Max Cartridge Gauge

• Inspects your pistol ammunition's critical dimensions
  
• Checks case length, cartridge length and diameter
  
• Enhances shooting safety, functioning and accuracy
  

Check your pistol ammunition's critical dimensions with Lyman's Pistol Max Cartridge Gauge for enhanced shooting safety, functioning and accuracy. Attach gauge to your reloader to quickly and automatically check for acceptable case length, overall cartridge length and diameter.



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..........and if anyone here knows, how do you attach something like this to a reloader, so it candy what I highlighted in bold font above????

I don't bother with chamber checkers for handguns. Nor do I have a lot of faith in them. They sort've make sense for rifles, but in a handgun, it's very simple to just pull the barrels. Once I've got an OAL and crimp that work, I make a notation of the measurements, lot numbers, and so on, and then once the ammunition tests accurate, I set aside five or ten or even a whole box so I can duplicate them later.

I'm not terribly concerned with my dies producing out-of-spec rounds. My Lee dies never did, and the Hornady dies I got this winter haven't either, unless I forget to swap the roundnose seating plug for the flatnose (hollowpoints and SWCs).

As to clearing the chamber, I would suggest that the route you took wasn't the best. If you agree that there was a cartridge in the chamber, and you cleared it from the muzzle end by way of checking it, then you put your hand in line with the muzzle, a live round, and a firing pin. That's a few steps closer to shooting southpaw than I'm comfortable with myself.

Cartridges stuck in chambers are probably one of the most dangerous situations you can get yourself into, because it complicates disassembly and it's not terribly safe to take the pistol home like that. I believe I've had to do it for somebody twice, and each time it was just about the least-fun exercise ever. IIRC, I used a wooden dowel from the chamber down through frame and out the bottom of the butt. I kept the dowel parallel to the firing line so the muzzle was downrange, and removed the firing pin. That allowed me to remove the dowel, verify a couple times that I'd actually removed the firing pin, and field-strip the pistol. Then it was just a matter of tapping out the cartridge, which was pretty well stuck.

The other time I couldn't get the stuck cartridge out or pulled apart, and the extractor wouldn't let the damn thing go. Here's the scary thing: the guy brought the gun to me just complaining it was locked up. I kinda figured what it was, padded the firing pin from the hammer, and used a pair of forceps and a pencil to probe the chamber. Just as I'd suspected--the pencil stopped about 1.25" short of the breechface.

The dude had that gun like that for years, sitting in a safe, occasionally getting dropped in a bag to make trips to the homes of various friends for a look-and-poke. When he brought it to me, the safety was even off. After I got done fixing it, I made a mental note never to be around when that guy was handling a gun.

Two things....

.....I had the slide locked back, so the firing pin was not near the round.
.....There was no chance I was going to take the gun home like that.
.....There were still some people at the range, so asking for help was my "PlanB".
.....Using the range rod, tapping lightly, with the gun pointed down range seemed like my best option.


This happened to me about five years ago, at "Trail Glades Range" with a 22 (S&W M-41) that didn't like the ammunition I had bought at the range.  I asked one of the range employees, he took the cleaning rod I had for the gun, and tapped it out this way.  It came out with no effort.  At that moment, this seemed like the proper way to deal with things.  ...until I just read your information above....


Finally, I'm wondering about something you wrote:

"When he brought it to me, the safety was even off. After I got done fixing it, I made a mental note never to be around when that guy was handling a gun."

I bought my first gun in Michigan on January 19, 1983.  It was a S&W Model 29, 44 Magnum, identical to the one Clint Eastwood made so famous.  My only instructions about gun were going shooting with my brother at a shooting range in Miami, so I knew a few things, and felt I could go to the various shooting ranges.  I met a co-worker, John Dunn, who taught me so much, sold me his 10 5/8" model of the 29, and also sold me his all his reloading gear.  From then on, I've learned a lot, and one of the most important things I learned was that I ALWAYS had so much more to learn.  The Highroads Forum, and now this forum, have helped.  I obviously don't even come close to knowing as much as you do.  

(....and should the same thing happen again tomorrow, I suspect that I would have to fix it the same way, but based on what you wrote, there would be a wooden dowel ((need to get one)) or my handkerchief, or something to prevent the firing pin from being able get to close to the bullet if the slide unintentionally closed.   THANKS.)

I need to do a lot more thinking about this.

When reloading for my 1911 wad gun, along with the rest of the checks mentioned here I also check all my .45ACP brass with the Martindale Gauge, it will catch defects on the rim of the case, it will also catch bulged cases but with the light loads I used I never had an issue with bulged cases. Catching rim defects, any that fail go into the practice bin, those that pass in the match bin. You can also use it to check rounds already loaded. I found, in my 1911 wad gun, if you get a nick on the rim and that spot happens to feed up with the nick at the 3 or 9 o-clock position it could cause a FTF.

It's a simple gauge that was made and sold by Bruce Martindale, a large nut reamed out to specs. I got mine from Bruce many years ago, back when we had the Bullseye Lava Net Forum. I don't know if Bruce is still making and selling these, I've been away from Bullseye for some years. Below is a link to a blog post I found with some info on the gauge and an email address for Bruce if anyone is interested, don't know if the email address is still good. Just thought I'd throw this out there, maybe it will help someone, it's worked very well for me over the years, once I started using it and catching No Go brass my FTF's reduced to almost zero. 

Here's the blog link https://flat5.net/2008/11/martindale-gauge/

Maybe some of the other old timers like me can chime in on the Martindale Gauge. 

Email sent.  Do you have a p photo?

Basically Bruce reamed out the nut to the max rim size for a 45. I made myself one as a lathe project way back.

Any that don't pass I end up pushing through a Lee bulge buster to resize the rim.

I'm sure Bruce still makes them

Close...Reamed to the breachface cut-out less tolerances....secret number determined the hard way, testing a thousand shells. The rims pound out and get larger with use and the shell gets shorter, measurably so.

Open crimps will also jam up a chamber solid . If it can't be fired, Put a max diameter wood dowell in and push or tap against the bench or pole while maintaining a downrange orientation . Not a good sitch to be in but maybe the best way to get out of it. Discharge is unlikely.
Thanks

bruce martindale wrote:Close...Reamed to the breachface cut-out less tolerances....secret number determined the hard way, testing a thousand shells. The rims pound out and get larger with use and the shell gets shorter, measurably so.

Open crimps will also jam up a chamber solid . If it can't be fired, Put a max diameter wood dowell in and push or tap against the bench or pole while maintaining a downrange orientation .  Not a good sitch to be in but maybe the best way to get out of it. Discharge is unlikely.
Thanks

How are you sir? Still in the game? I've been away from the sport for some time, bad luck and bad health tried to knock me down, came out missing bits and pieces but I came out the other side. I came back to see what's going on in the Bullseye world and I don't see many names I recognize, it's nice to see you post, hope you are doing well. 

Looking to get to the range this year to at least do some plinking, I need to feel some recoil. I'll need to load up some ammo so I'll be dusting off your gauge and putting it back to work, finally! 

Does anyone know if Ed Masaki is still shooting Bullseye or how he's doing? Hope he's well.

E. S.? I don't recognize all the pseudo names and have been unsuccessful at changing mine. I am well thanks, some surgery, some strength loss, struggling to get back to where l was but it's coming, l hope. Won my regional 22 league and the international Sectionals but up my way BE is dying. It's doing well in NJ and south but not yere. I am retired now so maybe I can help pull it back up? Understand Ed is well but I don't know if he still shoots. You have my email, good to hear from you. I for one would appreciate a private email from forum members who know me with a name decoder.

davekp wrote:Range brass that has been fired in a Glock can be problematic.

Glock brass is hell. There is a little bulge on the bottom. Only answer to that is garbage pail or Lee Bulge buster. 

With range brass I use Lee Factory Crimp otherwise I use Star Brass. I use new stuff and once fired for long line and then shoot the rest until the crack which seems anywhere from 15 to 100 reloads. Using the NOE case mouth expander if the case is cracked it will not seat the bullet the case splits pretty good. 



RT

It could be a tight chamber Karts have been know to be tight. If its doing that with Starline or New Remington Brass I would say its a tight Chamber. 

Also check you taper crimp, .470 is iffy in my guns they like .468. 

If you are casting your own are you sizing them? Some molds, I have been told cast them .453 or more. If its leading them in the chamber then maybe go a little shorter? 1.25 OAL works in mine.