CMP Service Pistol Question

Go down

CMP Service Pistol Question

Post by Slartybartfast on 7/10/2018, 9:12 am

Okay I get that a pistol is either on the list or it isn't (http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMPApprovedServicePistols.pdf?ver=04032018).
Seems to me that there's a lot of permissiveness in 4.2.1 (a) that is obliterated by 4.2.1 (b).
4.2.1 (a) The pistol must be a U. S. Service Pistol or a pistol derived from U. S. or foreign service pistol design.

4.2.1 (b) The pistol must be listed as an approved Service Pistol in 4.2.3 or 4.2.4.

So many possible pistols that would fall under "derived from", CZ/Tanfoglio for example, but let's ignore those. For those I'll just assume that it's a case of get them on the list or forget it.

And how are the rules interpreted for variants? All the different models of Sig P226 for example? Or the 5 inch barrelled Walther PPQ?

Would a Walther PPQ Q5 Match be considered acceptable as a "Service Pistol" under the rules? It and the standard PPQ 5 inch meet barrel length limits. Anything they wouldn't meet?

The Walther PPQ in 45 interests me, but obviously doesn't meet the rules as it's not in the approved pistols list.

Would a CZ Shadow 2 be acceptable by the rules considering it's a CZ 75 variant?


Last edited by Slartybartfast on 7/10/2018, 9:29 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Found that store listings give trigger pull as 5.6-lb, so not a problem for Service Pistol rules.)
avatar
Slartybartfast

Posts : 354
Join date : 2016-11-11
Age : 46
Location : Montreal, Québec

Back to top Go down

Re: CMP Service Pistol Question

Post by james r chapman on 7/10/2018, 10:46 am

go by b. if it's not on the list, don't get it.
avatar
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 2785
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 69
Location : HELL, Michigan

Back to top Go down

Re: CMP Service Pistol Question

Post by Jack H on 7/10/2018, 10:51 am

Not to worry about the PPQ 9mm long barrel.  It won't hit the broad side of a barn at 50yd.
avatar
Jack H

Posts : 1570
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

Re: CMP Service Pistol Question

Post by james r chapman on 7/10/2018, 10:53 am

I just realized, .38 super is ok for EIC in a 1911...
avatar
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 2785
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 69
Location : HELL, Michigan

Back to top Go down

Re: CMP Service Pistol Question

Post by Slartybartfast on 7/10/2018, 11:16 am

james r chapman wrote:go by b. if it's not on the list, don't get it.
Really I want to keep my options open. Don't seem to have PPC, Canadian Service Pistol, and definitely no CMP service pistol matches around me. So I want a pistol that can be the most versatile and least limited in all those competitions.

Will definitely travel to compete in Canadian competitions when I have a chance. Missed an opportunity to compete because I don't have any eligible pistol and the organiser and a couple other competitors all apologised that they hadn't thought ahead to bring another of theirs.

The PPQ is on the CMP list. But the list doesn't specify short or long barrel, M1 or M2, Q5 or not...
The P226 is on the CMP list. There are a whole host of variants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer_P226).
The CZ entry on the list specifically says "series" which includes a large number of models (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_75).

The Canadian rules seem more open. Having an open class and competition for honours only with "race" guns. To be "service" pistol, active service members are limited to their service issued firearms. The civilians get way more leeway. The limiting factor is that ammunition must meet minimum power factors depending on calibre.

I'd be more than happy if a SIG Sauer P226 X-Five or CZ 75 TS Czechmate were universally not allowed in CMP service pistol competition because they violate the spirit of being a "service" pistol. Versus other organisations that allow them as "production" class. But I don't see how they could be excluded based on the letter of the CMP rules.
avatar
Slartybartfast

Posts : 354
Join date : 2016-11-11
Age : 46
Location : Montreal, Québec

Back to top Go down

Re: CMP Service Pistol Question

Post by Slartybartfast on 7/10/2018, 11:25 am

Jack H wrote:Not to worry about the PPQ 9mm long barrel.  It won't hit the broad side of a barn at 50yd.

So similarly discount the XD(m)? Or all the Glocks on the CMP list?
What do they have that the PPQ doesn't.
Walther test target at 15m, watched reviews giving it 1.5 - 2" at 25y.
If there are people competing with Glocks I see no reason not to have a PPQ longslide and compete with it because you like the gun.
So let's not make the thread unhelpfully about equipment bashing, here I'm interested in which pistols (which are clearly in the same stable as other permitted ones) are allowed if not specifically identified.

Why would PPQ Q5 not qualify when the PPQ 5" probably would? And look at all the pistols that qualify as P226 or CZ 75 Series. Is there a line drawn in those lists between allowed and excluded?
avatar
Slartybartfast

Posts : 354
Join date : 2016-11-11
Age : 46
Location : Montreal, Québec

Back to top Go down

Re: CMP Service Pistol Question

Post by james r chapman on 7/10/2018, 11:32 am

Honestly, your overthinking this.
several XD(m) 5.25 competition guns finished in the top 20 last years Presidents 100.
If you seriously have concerns about a specific model and want answers beyond the listed rules, you really need to contact the appropriate NRA dept for answers.

http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CMPApprovedServicePistols.pdf
avatar
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 2785
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 69
Location : HELL, Michigan

Back to top Go down

Re: CMP Service Pistol Question

Post by Jack H on 7/10/2018, 11:54 am

I think "PPQ" and "9mm/.40S&W"  would cover all PPQ except .45. 

My long barrel is not the Q5
avatar
Jack H

Posts : 1570
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

Re: CMP Service Pistol Question

Post by Slartybartfast on 7/10/2018, 12:06 pm

james r chapman wrote:Honestly, your overthinking this.
Just asking if "P226" covers all the variants of not.
Similarly "PPQ" and "CZ 75 Series".

That's not overthinking. It's a simple question of rule interpretation.
avatar
Slartybartfast

Posts : 354
Join date : 2016-11-11
Age : 46
Location : Montreal, Québec

Back to top Go down

Re: CMP Service Pistol Question

Post by Wobbley on 7/10/2018, 1:23 pm

I don’t know Canadian rules anymore but if it was me I think I’d get a CZ 75 or P226 and go from there.  Trying to find the best may end up with getting nothing.  My CZ is an accurate pistol and there are ways of making it more accurate.  The 226 is also a good high end pistol that has a strong support base.  Either would serve you well.

That only leaves the 45 and the Sig has a 1911 and 220 where CZ has the 97.  Either of these should be good enough up to expert.
avatar
Wobbley

Posts : 1585
Join date : 2015-02-12

Back to top Go down

Re: CMP Service Pistol Question

Post by Slartybartfast on 7/10/2018, 5:08 pm

Wobbley wrote:I don’t know Canadian rules anymore ...

Well I did read the NSCC rulebook more carefully and found this interesting rule that I guess applies if you don't want to be dumped into "open" or "honours only" competition.
http://www.dcra.ca/2015%20docs/2015%20NSCC%20Rulebook%202015-04-11.pdf wrote:7.04 Firearms
1. Pistol Description
a. Any pistol in any caliber which meets range regulations and would logically and practically be used on operations.
I hate rules like this. Too much leeway for on-the-spot improvisation. To be clear it's the "logically and practically be used on operations" I object to. Because in the case of something like the Sig P226 every model could be called "logical and practical" for operation except maybe the shiny X5's (according to https://www.gungenius.com/ seems there's 58 versions!). At which point it seems you're really just arguing whether the gun is too pretty for operations. Because there's a P226 X-Five Tactical.

Those rules even allow reflex sights. << This is not a dig. Just a surprise that in Canadian Service Pistol reflex sights are allowed.

Now I guess I have to email the CMP, the DCRA, and the organiser of the competition I was recently in (their "service pistol" course of fire didn't match any of the rulebooks I've looked at so far) to see what really is or isn't specifically acceptable.

Was really surprised by the number of Sig P226 Models. In all, there are 247 different models that could qualify for CMP service pistol plus 14 X-6 models.


Last edited by Slartybartfast on 7/12/2018, 8:54 am; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Slartybartfast

Posts : 354
Join date : 2016-11-11
Age : 46
Location : Montreal, Québec

Back to top Go down

Re: CMP Service Pistol Question

Post by Orpanaut on 7/11/2018, 6:12 am

If there is a pistol that you think fits 4.2.1 (a), you can always ask the ODCMP to add it to the list. I did that with the CZ P-09 and someone should do it with the Canik TP pistols, since they are good shooters and in service with Turkey, a major NATO ally.

Orpanaut

Posts : 86
Join date : 2015-08-05

Back to top Go down

Re: CMP Service Pistol Question

Post by jglenn21 on 7/11/2018, 6:58 am

james r chapman wrote:I just realized, .38 super is ok for EIC in a 1911...


Yep,  115 xtps shoot pretty well with mild BE loads.
avatar
jglenn21

Posts : 1407
Join date : 2015-04-07
Age : 70
Location : monroe , ga

Back to top Go down

Re: CMP Service Pistol Question

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum