loads for 45 button bullets

by Richard Benoit Thu Mar 07 2019, 20:52

Can someone suggest a load for Missouri bullet co's 185gr 45 button bullet. I've had horrid results with loads of 3.6 N310 , 4.0 WST , crimped to .465 , various seating depths. The bullets are well cast , .452 dia. , weight spread of 1.5 grs hi-lo. I can't find fault with the bullets, but am getting >6" groups RR at 50 yds. vs <3" w/Zero 185 or200 lswc with similar loading . I've had trouble in the past with similar bullets from other suppliers . I thought that was the go to bullet design for accuracy , but I can't seem to get anything better than a rough pattern. At this point I'd be happy with a 3" group at 25 yds for short line practice , just to prevent having an almost full box of bullets go to waste. BTW , similar results with Zero 185 buttons, now discontinued? , Berry's 185 flat point. Gun is accurized , <2" w/ factory target ammo, Bar-Sto barrel. Any ideas? Richard

by rreid Thu Mar 07 2019, 21:12

I don't know what to tell you. I couldn't get them to shoot either. Pretty much all I use now is Zero 185 SWHP #186.

by bruce martindale Thu Mar 07 2019, 21:44

I would take a look at loading technique. Sometimes it's picky and makes a difference.

Are they flat or bevel based? Do they start 1/16" into the case by hand fit? Does your seater have either the matching bullet point shape or hollowed out so it seats with pressure at the bullet shoulder.

Load some with unresized brass and see what happens.

Barring that, l sm stumped

by **Wobbley** Thu Mar 07 2019, 22:07

Up your load to 800 fps.

by lablover Thu Mar 07 2019, 22:29

Not a Missouri bullet but I’ve had great luck with 4.2-4.4 gr of BE and button nose 185 bullet. I crimp the daylights out of them at .463 ish. Single raged hole at 25 and less than 2” at 50. And those are yards not feet.

by 10sandxs Fri Mar 08 2019, 08:18

Not directly related, but I had a heck of a time making my 170s shoot well this winter. On a whim, I sized to .453 after powder coating and the RR groups went from 1.1" at 50 FEET to .6". Any 200 gr hg68 run fine at .452. Even ran 185 hg130s at .4515 (ish) and they shot just fine.

by Dr.Don Fri Mar 08 2019, 09:57

If you want to shoot a "button" style 185, try the Magnus #801. Very accurate with a range of loads.

by james r chapman Fri Mar 08 2019, 10:46

2nd the #801

by zanemoseley Fri Mar 08 2019, 11:19

I also like the #801.

by cdrt Fri Mar 08 2019, 12:45

This is from the Lyman 45th Edition reloading manual. The 185 bullet listed is their button nose bullet.

by lablover Fri Mar 08 2019, 13:25

Anyway you can get a shot of the whole page? I’ve gotta find a used cop6..great book

by fc60 Fri Mar 08 2019, 15:49

Greetings,

Test result with home cast H&G #130 flat base using LinoType.

Distance 50 Yards using a Gold Cup barrel mounted in a mechanical fixture.

Cheers,

Dave

by cdrt Fri Mar 08 2019, 15:55

lablover wrote:Anyway you can get a shot of the whole page? I’ve gotta find a used cop6..great book

by Gary Wells Sat Mar 09 2019, 10:07

Richard Benoit wrote:Can someone suggest a load for Missouri bullet co's 185gr 45 button bullet. I've had horrid results with loads of 3.6 N310 , 4.0 WST , crimped to .465 , various seating depths. The bullets are well cast , .452 dia. , weight spread of 1.5 grs hi-lo. I can't find fault with the bullets, but am getting >6" groups RR at 50 yds. vs <3" w/Zero 185 or200

I'm curious, how many bullets were weighed out to obtain the total weight spread of 1.5 grs?

by Richard Benoit Sat Mar 09 2019, 10:54

Richard Benoit wrote:Can someone suggest a load for Missouri bullet co's 185gr 45 button bullet. I've had horrid results with loads of 3.6 N310 , 4.0 WST , crimped to .465 , various seating depths. The bullets are well cast , .452 dia. , weight spread of 1.5 grs hi-lo. I can't find fault with the bullets, but am getting >6" groups RR at 50 yds. vs <3" w/Zero 185 or200 lswc with similar loading . I've had trouble in the past with similar bullets from other suppliers . I thought that was the go to bullet design for accuracy , but I can't seem to get anything better than a rough pattern. At this point I'd be happy with a 3" group at 25 yds for short line practice , just to prevent having an almost full box of bullets go to waste. BTW , similar results with Zero 185 buttons, now discontinued? , Berry's 185 flat point. Gun is accurized , <2" w/ factory target ammo, Bar-Sto barrel. Any ideas? Richard

Thanks for all the replies. The goal is an accurate powder puff load due to arthritis ,etc., so upping to 800 fps won't work. The test ammo was loaded on a Dillon 550 with all Dillon dies , as has been all my successful ammo. I've since upgraded to a UniqueTek Powder drop/expander for more concentric bullet seating. I've also drilled out a RCBS seating stem to seat from the shoulder , although my seating depth variation with the Dillon nose seater has always been less than factory ammo. Incidently, if anyone is considering modifying a nose seater for shoulder seating, it was surprisingly easy with a hand drill and a little care. The drill bit is self centering due to the shape of the seating plug. The Magnus 801 seems to be the same bullet, a copy of the H&G 130 , I believe , possibly a Saeco mold. I'll retry the test with the new press set-up using 3.5 of Bullseye , FLP , once fired TZZ cases , and see what happens. As stated, I've had difficulty with this bullet design in the past , I should probably just load up some recoil simulator practice loads to get rid of them and then stick with Zero bullets.

by Dr.Don Sat Mar 09 2019, 11:25

I have no personal experience with Missouri bullets. But you have several posts here saying people did not find that bullet from Missouri to be accurate. When a known accurate gun won't group a bullet with several different loads/powders, the culprit is almost always the bullet. If you like that design, try a bullet several others have experience with and find accurate, like the Magnus #801. Just because bullets have the same design does not make them equally accurate. And I believe the #801 is actually a modified H&G 130. Terry will sell a sample of 100 to try if you ask him.

The bullet is the critical component in every accurate load.

by Richard Benoit Sat Mar 09 2019, 11:37

Gary Wells wrote:
Richard Benoit wrote:Can someone suggest a load for Missouri bullet co's 185gr 45 button bullet. I've had horrid results with loads of 3.6 N310 , 4.0 WST , crimped to .465 , various seating depths. The bullets are well cast , .452 dia. , weight spread of 1.5 grs hi-lo. I can't find fault with the bullets, but am getting >6" groups RR at 50 yds. vs <3" w/Zero 185 or200

I'm curious, how many bullets were weighed out to obtain the total weight spread of 1.5 grs?

10 randomly picked bullets varied from 191.7 to 190.3, 1.4 gr spread actually. The remaining 8 bullets were all within .5 gr of each other. Bullets were well filled out, grease grooves filled w/ blue lube, by all indications, excellent commercially cast bullets. They have a slightly radiused base, not a full bevel , just like the Magnus.

by Richard Benoit Sat Mar 09 2019, 11:40

bruce martindale wrote:I would take a look at loading technique. Sometimes it's picky and makes a difference.

Are they flat or bevel based? Do they start 1/16" into the case by hand fit? Does your seater have either the matching bullet point shape or hollowed out so it seats with pressure at the bullet shoulder.

Load some with unresized brass and see what happens.

Barring that, l sm stumped

What's the idea behind unresized brass?

by **Wobbley** Sat Mar 09 2019, 12:22

Un resized brass (from your gun) is easier to seat bullets in squarely. Resizing generally makes this problematic as all dies size the cases excessively. The expanders don’t expand enough and if they did it is seldom straight. Shooting unresized you eliminate these variables.

You stated that you’re using Dillon dies on a 550 with a Dillon expander. The Dillon expander is setup for jacketed bullets as is the bullet seater. I recommend that you look at Redding PRO series of dies, replace the expander with an “M-profile” expander sized for your bullet and seat the bullet from the shoulder and taper crimp seperately.

by Gary Wells Sat Mar 09 2019, 18:14

Richard Benoit wrote:
Gary Wells wrote:
Richard Benoit wrote:Can someone suggest a load for Missouri bullet co's 185gr 45 button bullet. I've had horrid results with loads of 3.6 N310 , 4.0 WST , crimped to .465 , various seating depths. The bullets are well cast , .452 dia. , weight spread of 1.5 grs hi-lo. I can't find fault with the bullets, but am getting >6" groups RR at 50 yds. vs <3" w/Zero 185 or200

I'm curious, how many bullets were weighed out to obtain the total weight spread of 1.5 grs?
10 randomly picked bullets varied from 191.7 to 190.3, 1.4 gr spread actually. The remaining 8 bullets were all within .5 gr of each other. Bullets were well filled out, grease grooves filled w/ blue lube, by all indications, excellent commercially cast bullets. They have a slightly radiused base, not a full bevel , just like the Magnus

That is exceptionally tight variation for a commercially cast bullet. Good Luck.

by bruce martindale Sat Mar 09 2019, 20:03

Unresized, Wobbley, yup. But wait, there's more...typical loading dies are set to maintain a tight fit with the smallest possible bullet (jacketed) placed in the thinnest brass, like Remington.

So the shell i.d. can be undersize and actually the case can swage the bullet. This is a big deal with dead soft swaged like the zero lead, superbly accurate and no leading IF loaded correctly. If not, users complain about those two issues.

by bruce martindale Sat Mar 09 2019, 20:10

That all said, l have been using Hornady 454 Casull resizers for decades with the swaged and with flat base bullets. Bevel base and hardcast solves problems you didn't know you had.

by Centerline Mon Mar 11 2019, 01:54

I use those Missouri 185 buttons with 4.0g Titegroup for 25 yd. They are not bad for 50 yd but i prefer 3.9g VV N310 w/ 200g bullet for distance. The Missouri bullets are cast well, clean, and inexpensive. I have used the Magnus 801 and it is good but leaves a spidery hole even more than the Missouri buttons. Hard to score so I go with the Missouris b/c thet are cheaper and just as accurate at that distance.

by joy2shoot Mon Mar 11 2019, 09:56

bruce martindale wrote:...
So the shell i.d. can be undersize and actually the case can swage the bullet. This is a big deal with dead soft swaged like the zero lead, superbly accurate and no leading IF loaded correctly. If not, users complain about those two issues.

Bruce,

If after seating your Zero swaged bullet (.452 diameter), you pulled it, what diameter would you hope to find? I use NOE expanders and use the .453 x .449 for my lead bullets that have a diameter of .452. The .453 x 449 means that the very top of the case has been expanded to .453 for manual bullet placement but when the die pushes the bullet into the case, the bearing surface is pushed into that part of the case that has been expanded to .449.

Thomas

p.s. Apologies if this is a post hijack.
p.p.s. I find that I have to do a light polish of the expander plug to remove residual tool marks. Otherwise, the plug starts shaving brass.

by Richard Benoit Sun Mar 17 2019, 20:28

joy2shoot wrote:
bruce martindale wrote:...
So the shell i.d. can be undersize and actually the case can swage the bullet. This is a big deal with dead soft swaged like the zero lead, superbly accurate and no leading IF loaded correctly. If not, users complain about those two issues.
Bruce,

If after seating your Zero swaged bullet (.452 diameter), you pulled it, what diameter would you hope to find? I use NOE expanders and use the .453 x .449 for my lead bullets that have a diameter of .452. The .453 x 449 means that the very top of the case has been expanded to .453 for manual bullet placement but when the die pushes the bullet into the case, the bearing surface is pushed into that part of the case that has been expanded to .449.

Thomas

p.s. Apologies if this is a post hijack.
p.p.s. I find that I have to do a light polish of the expander plug to remove residual tool marks. Otherwise, the plug starts shaving brass.

in response to this thread about resizing, I tried a 45 Colt sizing die. It sized cases down to .470 as compared to Dillon 45ACP dies sizing down to .465. Pulled Zero bullets that started out at .452 came out of the Dillon sized case at .450 as opposed to unchanged at .452 from the 45 Colt sizing die. Both cases were expanded with a UniqueTek .45ACP powder drop expander. Cases were once fired TZZ with a .010" case wall . Surprisingly, using an impact style bullet puller, it still took 3 good whacks to get the bullet out of either case. I'll load some up and RRtest when the weather improves a bit. Certainly looks promising, thanks for the tip , Richard

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