I’m struggling with load data

I got a great deal on Nosler 185 jhp bullets and my guns love them. I’ve been using 4.3 gr vv n310 and a 12 lb spring slide mounted 9000sc

I also have a fondness for the 160 gr button nose and 4.3 gr BE will give me lots of jams with that 12 lb spring. Sure I could shoot the jhp load on the short line but I tried that and recoil recovery ain’t that good for me.

If I want to use the 160s on the short line is my only option to change out the spring between long and short line?  I even tried a 11 lb spring and still no go.  I’m sure I could jack up the powder charge but then what’s the point. It starts feeling hotter to me with more recoil.  May as well shoot 200 gr swc then.

I have no issues changing the spring.  I’d like to find a lower recoil feeling load for 25 but I think that beast of a scope ain’t gonna let it happen.

I’m all ears on any load or spring changes...or anything.  I’m going to be real honest here.  I’m tired of messing with load data..I just want to shoot...and accurately..haha

BE powder or N310 doesn’t matter however N 310 is lots cleaner for sure.

I’m not he’ll bent on the 160s if need be.  I’ll go 200 for short line if needed.

have you tried 4.3-4.4 BE yet with the 160?

james r chapman wrote:have you tried 4.3-4.4 BE yet with the 160?

Tried 4.4 BE still getting jams.  Thought I was having a extractor problem but why no issues with the 185 jhp.  The barrel does have some issues that Jon E is helping me with.  I even went as far as putting the stock RO Barrel and bushing in but problems still persist.  Not so much with the 200 gr swc maybe 1 in 30 will hiccup but with the 160s every mag!  That’s why I think I,need a lighter spring for my lead loads..I’m so $&*# confused

I use 4.3 WST with a 185gr swhp and 160gr lsw. 9lb recoil spring with an Utradot2. About half the time the slide doesnt lock back on the last 160gr BUT the gun runs great. Hammer spring is SA original with the weird lock that they used to put on the mainspring housing. I'm guessing that a 9 or 10 lb recoil spring is what you need.

What kind of "jams" do you get? I assume it's failure to eject, either inline or stovepiping. If it is mis-feeding the new round, that may be a different issue.

IMO changing springs between long and short lines is too much of a distraction. If you insist on doing it, tell the range master ahead of time and keep plenty of spares on hand for when the spring retainer goes flying away.

Assuming it is failure to eject and there is nothing wrong in your lead loads... How far does your long line load throw the brass? Maybe go down a pound or two on the recoil spring across the board. You could also reduce the main spring. 

The shape of the firing pin retainer affects how much the recoil is delayed. It is a place to experiment. 

Do you have a Shok-Buff or similar buffer? Removing it will reduce the effective spring rate. Maybe that will be enough. If you don't have a buffer and are concerned about abusing your slide & frame, use a lighter spring and add a buffer.

How much have you tried increasing your short line load? Try higher charges and see what the recoil feels like. You can also try using a heavier crimp.

Have you tried downloading your JHP loads to reduce recoil at the short line? 

A lighter slide is, IMO more forgiving of loads. The 9000 is a lot of weight on the slide. Go to a lighter scope or frame mount (and increase your recoil spring).

The only other option I can think of is to strengthen your hand / wrist / arm and train mentally to ignore the recoil. There is a limit of how low you can reduce recoil in a semi-automatic gun.

SteveT wrote:What kind of "jams" do you get? I assume it's failure to eject, either inline or stovepiping. If it is mis-feeding the new round, that may be a different issue.


IMO changing springs between long and short lines is too much of a distraction. If you insist on doing it, tell the range master ahead of time and keep plenty of spares on hand for when the spring retainer goes flying away.

Assuming it is failure to eject and there is nothing wrong in your lead loads... How far does your long line load throw the brass? Maybe go down a pound or two on the recoil spring across the board. You could also reduce the main spring. 

The shape of the firing pin retainer affects how much the recoil is delayed. It is a place to experiment. 

Do you have a Shok-Buff or similar buffer? Removing it will reduce the effective spring rate. Maybe that will be enough. If you don't have a buffer and are concerned about abusing your slide & frame, use a lighter spring and add a buffer.

How much have you tried increasing your short line load? Try higher charges and see what the recoil feels like. You can also try using a heavier crimp.

Have you tried downloading your JHP loads to reduce recoil at the short line? 

A lighter slide is, IMO more forgiving of loads. The 9000 is a lot of weight on the slide. Go to a lighter scope or frame mount (and increase your recoil spring).

The only other option I can think of is to strengthen your hand / wrist / arm and train mentally to ignore the recoil. There is a limit of how low you can reduce recoil in a semi-automatic gun.

Not mis feeds at all but failure to extract or eject..for giggles I upped the spring for my long line loads to 13 lbs and started having problems..went back to 12 and problems went away.  No shok buff.  I’ve gone as high as I really want to go on short line.  Sure I could go up lots more but that kind of defeats the purpose I think. I will try a heavier crimp however, that’s a good idea!

My slide has been lightened with cuts under the rail and other areas.  Rings have even been lightened.

Oh yea, good idea on the spare springs and plugs.  Last weekend I had time left after slow fire and went to change the spring back to the 12 lb and zing...there went the plug about 10 ft in front of the line.  Hahaha

All this in a quest to shoot lead..why am I putting myself thru this?  Oh yea, lots cheaper

Thanks for the advice

I’ve gone up to 4.5 BE for the 160s with a 11 lb spring and always a failure on every mag 2nd from last round.  If that helps anyone.  And I’ve tried about 20 different mags.

Yes, I have a 1911 Magazine stockpile.  Lol

If 12 works, use it.

james r chapman wrote:If 12 works, use it.

It works for the 185 gr jhp and vvN310. But not for 4.4 be and 160s or 4.2 br and 200 swc.  Hence my issue

Why not just shoot the 160's at the long line too? They group well for me. And not trying to be mean but if you're a marksman as your title states I don't think you need that extra 1/4"-1/2" of group size at 50 by shooting JHP. Just drop your spring down to 10 pounds and use the 160's for the whole match. That's what I've been doing and I'm getting up into the upper 850's to low 860's with them if I'm shooting well.

zanemoseley wrote:Why not just shoot the 160's at the long line too? They group well for me. And not trying to be mean but if you're a marksman as your title states I don't think you need that extra 1/4"-1/2" of group size at 50 by shooting JHP. Just drop your spring down to 10 pounds and use the 160's for the whole match. That's what I've been doing and I'm getting up into the upper 850's to low 860's with them if I'm shooting well.

Coincidentally I just tried Brazos Hitek coated 160's at 50 yards a few days ago and they did pretty well. All within the 10 ring off a sandbag. The brass was very well used as they are my shortline load. I'm guessing in new brass they could be X ring.

I also use 4.3 N310 with 185 JHP for long line. I am using a Sams built frame mount with a 14# spring. My short line load is 3.9 of N310. Everything else the same. I could probably go as low as 3.8, however I will  live with the extra recoil to insure reliable function. One suggestion I would make is to regularly clean the extractor tunnel. You would be amazed at the build up it gets when shooting dirty powder.

zanemoseley wrote:Why not just shoot the 160's at the long line too? They group well for me. And not trying to be mean but if you're a marksman as your title states I don't think you need that extra 1/4"-1/2" of group size at 50 by shooting JHP. Just drop your spring down to 10 pounds and use the 160's for the whole match. That's what I've been doing and I'm getting up into the upper 850's to low 860's with them if I'm shooting well.

I would absolutely love to use them. I just can’t get them to function the gun!  I’ll try the 10 lb spring and see what happens.  Zane, what load are you using to function that heavy beast like I have?  The 185s just work and I’m getting tired of trying.  Will load up some more 160’s and 10 lb spring and see what happens

Also, I’m not shooting the 185 jhp for better scores.  I’m shooting them because they work in my gun.  Zero offense taken buddy.  Plus at 12 cents each at least I get to shoot. Haha

Ok I see you can't get it to run 160's no matter the spring? Try the 10 pound spring just to be sure. If it still doesn't work you may need ramp/throat work, maybe mags. Those 160's are pretty stubby so I could see where some might have feed issues. I run 4.6 WST with a .463" crimp, runs my Jon Eulette 45 with 9000SC dot like a champ, never an alibi.

zanemoseley wrote:Ok I see you can't get it to run 160's no matter the spring? Try the 10 pound spring just to be sure. If it still doesn't work you may need ramp/throat work, maybe mags. Those 160's are pretty stubby so I could see where some might have feed issues. I run 4.6 WST with a .463" crimp, runs my Jon Eulette 45 with 9000SC dot like a champ, never an alibi.

Have a 10 lb spring and some 4.3 be 160s loaded up and heading to the range.  I should have my head examined I swear!

Btw, never tried a 10 lb spring. Lowest I went was 11lb.  I’ll go 10 and strip lens shade off and windage and elevation caps off and see what happens...lol. Also added more crimp

Ok...so.  The gun was cleaned and headed to the range.  First several mags with the 160s at 4.3 gr BE worked fine.....then, the dirtier it got the problems came back but just sporadic.  So, I could bump up the charge a bit or lower the spring.  All above was done with the 10 lb spring.

Zane, I’d be curious what the equivalent of your load would be with BE.  You’re running 4.6 wst not sure what BE would be.  I will say they shot great on target.  I was very excited at first then the decline.

Here is a twist to all this.  I went ahead and put the 12 lb spring back in and started shooting the 185 jhp with 4.3 N310 and guess what happened on the first 2 mags...yup, failure to extract just like the 160s. But then in never happened again after that.  Odd.  I’m not ruling out a bum extractor or sketchy brass. It’s all once fired Winchester not shot in my gun.

are you lubing the hell out of the slide rails and bbl bushing with oil?

james r chapman wrote:are you lubing the hell out of the slide rails and bbl bushing with oil?

Well I’m lubing it. Not sure I’m going crazy with it..that’s a thought. Hell I’d lube it after every string if I had too.  Not like it’s a super tight wad gun

Seems like there is a consistency issue. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Next time you go to the range shoot several magazines two handed. If possible have a friend videotape the pistol, hand, wrist and arm as it is being fired one handed. Then play it back in slo-mo and watch the gun in recoil. I am in no way questioning your shooting ability, but sometimes we have to look at ourselves as the cause. I know this because it happened to me. I was lightening my grip when firing a string. I could actually see my wrist breaking in the slo-mo video.

To test extractor, remove slide.  Push a live round under the extractor hook.   Shake the slide a little.  If the loaded round falls out, extractor needs adjusting.  

If you mention to say Eject, then ignore above.

David

When it fails to extract, it tears a tiny burr in the rim.

Estuck.  That’s a good idea.  The the thought of limp writing has crossed my mind a few times.  Not sure why it wouldn’t happen with the jhp load...maybe I’m gripping harder because I know it’s a hotter load.  I may also find someone else to run it thru it’s paces.  Thanks for the advice

Addendum. Haha. Never ever happens with my ball gun.  Bone stock RO

I don't think you have a loading problem or recoil spring problem, You have an extractor problem.   Have you pulled it out lately and cleaned the channel?  

I re read the thread.  It seems you even put in a different barrel with the same problem.   This points more to the extractor.  

David

I had a phantom FTEject on my wad gun and came to discover that it was only when I used Starline brass.   Then I noticed on another post here that Starline rim diameter is larger than the other manufacturers.  I wonder if you keep and measure your FTE brass if you would find some anomaly to your other, functioning, brass?

David R wrote:I don't think you have a loading problem or recoil spring problem, You have an extractor problem.   Have you pulled it out lately and cleaned the channel?  

I re read the thread.  It seems you even put in a different barrel with the same problem.   This points more to the extractor.  

David

I’m going to take the extractor out of my ball gun and stick it in the wad gun and see what happens.  Won’t be till tomorrow I’m hoping
Edit?..I did clean the extractor channel out

Aprilian wrote:I had a phantom FTEject on my wad gun and came to discover that it was only when I used Starline brass.   Then I noticed on another post here that Starline rim diameter is larger than the other manufacturers.  I wonder if you keep and measure your FTE brass if you would find some anomaly to your other, functioning, brass?

That’s a good idea, I’ll measure it against some others.  I did notice some of my once fired Winchester brass has a little square like ding on the rim.  Just some of them. I wonder if that could be causing the problem?