Hornady LnL with PhotoEscape powder die & expander?

Hi!

Does anyone have a Hornady LnL press with PhotoEscape's powder die and powder through expander? 

I need help figuring out how to replace the Hornady die.....

Thanks!

Val

Hey Val! Sorry I didn't get to this this morning. Had to finish loading my 45 match ammo for tomorrow! Here's my setup:




If you want to use PhotoEscapes expander with the powder dispenser, see this page:

https://www.photoescapeinc.com/products/case-activation-adapter.html

He's got a video on there.

Dave

And yes, my bench and basement is currently a mess!

The expander is not suited for lead bullets.  Only jacketed.  Maybe Alex would turn out some larger diameter pte's for Hornady.

My process for loading on the Hornady has evolved to allow for a powder check die.  I could load 10's of thousands with no problems then, poot.  No powder.  This would happen at the worst times.  Like Perry for example.   So now I added the case feeder which is a great addition.  Well worth the cost.  

I run size/de-cap as fast as I can pull the handle and process the brass first.  Then when I finish the loads, I expand in the first station, prime, powder drop, powder check, seat, crimp.  I use a NOE expander plug in the Lee Universal Exp die and I get no swaging of the lead.

Steve,

Valerie is talking about using my single stage die with LNL powder measure.  She needs help mounting case activation kit on it.  This allows for using of all of my PTUs for Dillon on Hornady (and on pretty much any press with 7/8-14 threads). 

It is actually quite easy to do, and I have video clip on my website.  Although, I might need to take step by step shots of the process.

AP

PhotoEscape wrote:Steve,

Valerie is talking about using my single stage die with LNL powder measure.  She needs help mounting case activation kit on it.  This allows for using of all of my PTUs for Dillon on Hornady (and on pretty much any press with 7/8-14 threads). 

It is actually quite easy to do, and I have video clip on my website.  Although, I might need to take step by step shots of the process.

AP

Alex and Steve and Dave, (and anyone that can help me!!)

I was able to get the expander die set up in a separate stage like Dave shows in his pictures above. How much of the bullet should go in by hand before the seating die? Right now, 50% of the bullet goes in. If I try to expand any more, the case bells and will not go into the seating die at all. Dave says that the bullet should be able to go in 80-90% with light finger pressure.....

So, I was skipping the powder die to get the right amount of expanding and now it seems that the powder drop is narrowing what the expander die is trying to do so bullets are not getting in all.

This is really frustrating.

Val

Valerie,

For the sake of getting accurate feedback and suggestions, please confirm that you are trying to load 38 Special Wadcutter.

If that is correct assumption, then case belling is indicative that you are using regular 38 Special brass as opposed to WC specific one.  There are several treads on the forum regarding this.  If brass you have is the only option available to you, than using Lee FCD die is pretty much a must.  More so, for S&W M52, I had to order custom 0.375x" (I have to check to confirm) ID one, as production ones have too wide tolerances.

AP

Thanks, Alex~

I am trying to load 38 Special wadcutters - HBWC to be exact.

I had no idea that there is a specific type of brass for wadcutters....?!?!

I have the Lee Factory Crimp die, and that is not a problem.

"More so, for S&W M52, I had to order custom 0.375x" (I have to check to confirm) ID one, as production ones have too wide tolerances."  - I have no idea what this means...

I have a combination of plain and cannellured brass. I have tried both and have the same problem.
The expander die works fine, but there is something happening in the powder die that is causing it to resize the case, so that when it gets to the seating die, I can't get the bullet in at all.

Having previously reloaded 9mm, I removed Alex's powder through expander and replaced it with the pistol bushing with the small countersink facing down as per the Hornady Powder Measure instructions. Is there something else I should have done?

Val

Valerie,

Try removing that bushing and run couple cases through without dropping powder.  Remove cases at seating station and check if you still can insert bullet.  If you are indeed able to insert bullet, then you have an answer.  Next in line would be case activation adapter.  If you loaded 9mm previously you need to raise powder through die to accommodate difference in the length of cases between 38 special and 9mm.  If you do that, my guess is that you can put back my 9mm PTU and use it as a means for case activated powder drop.

AP

valbern67 wrote:Thanks, Alex~

I am trying to load 38 Special wadcutters - HBWC to be exact.

I had no idea that there is a specific type of brass for wadcutters....?!?!

I have the Lee Factory Crimp die, and that is not a problem.

j

"More so, for S&W M52, I had to order custom 0.375x" (I have to check to confirm) ID one, as production ones have too wide tolerances."  - I have no idea what this means...

I have a combination of plain and cannellured brass. I have tried both and have the same problem.
The expander die works fine, but there is something happening in the powder die that is causing it to resize the case, so that when it gets to the seating die, I can't get the bullet in at all.

Having previously reloaded 9mm, I removed Alex's powder through expander and replaced it with the pistol bushing with the small countersink facing down as per the Hornady Powder Measure instructions. Is there something else I should have done?

Val

Val,


My data DOES NOT support the notion that “special Wadcutter” brass exists.  I dimensionally checked the length of the inside cylindrical portion of different makes and eras of 38 special brass.  Brass from Wadcutter ammo, brass from ordinary ammo, brass with “+P”, and even some “+P+”.  The summary of the spreadsheet is shown in the attached.  Now some brass is definitely to be avoided, like +P+ and most +P.  


I’ve also loaded and shot “+P” brass that has shot very well to the same POI as regular brass.   I have found that some brass (Magtech in particular) seem to be stiffer in sizing and bullet seating, but they seemed to shoot OK.

PhotoEscape wrote:Valerie,

Try removing that bushing and run couple cases through without dropping powder.  Remove cases at seating station and check if you still can insert bullet.  If you are indeed able to insert bullet, then you have an answer.  Next in line would be case activation adapter.  If you loaded 9mm previously you need to raise powder through die to accommodate difference in the length of cases between 38 special and 9mm.  If you do that, my guess is that you can put back my 9mm PTU and use it as a means for case activated powder drop.

AP

Alex,

Looks like this did the trick! I took out the pistol bushing and put your 9mm PTX back in and adjusted for height, and it's all good!

Thanks,

Val

I just received a complete setup for 45 ACP, with the HTC expander, for my AP. The issue I'm seeing right now is that there isn't enough travel in the single stage die and LNL adapter to fully cycle the measure. It needs about .550 travel, and there's only about .450 in the die setup.

This is independent of the spacers, as the PTU bottoms on the threaded cap regardless.

So the question is:

Is anyone using it this way, and not seeing a problem with the measure filling/dumping properly?

I'm planning on setting it up as an expand only station for the time being, so the measure will still be actuated by the standard Hornady parts. But ultimately I'd like to merge this into one station and maybe add a powder check die. Which I *could* do now since I'm sizing/decapping/tumbling as a separate op anyway.

My thoughts are one of the parts needs to be cut back about .100. Most likely the thread on the retaining cap. Or maybe there's a better choice. I haven't looked at it real hard yet. But if this was all still in CA I'd probably have it set up in my lathe right now ...

WesG wrote:I just received a complete setup for 45 ACP, with the HTC expander, for my AP. The issue I'm seeing right now is that there isn't enough travel in the single stage die and LNL adapter to fully cycle the measure. It needs about .550 travel, and there's only about .450 in the die setup.

This is independent of the spacers, as the PTU bottoms on the threaded cap regardless.

So the question is:

Is anyone using it this way, and not seeing a problem with the measure filling/dumping properly?

I'm planning on setting it up as an expand only station for the time being, so the measure will still be actuated by the standard Hornady parts. But ultimately I'd like to merge this into one station and maybe add a powder check die. Which I *could* do now since I'm sizing/decapping/tumbling as a separate op anyway.

My thoughts are one of the parts needs to be cut back about .100. Most likely the thread on the retaining cap. Or maybe there's a better choice. I haven't looked at it real hard yet. But if this was all still in CA I'd probably have it set up in my lathe right now ...

Wes,
You don't need threaded cap if you are using case activation.  Threaded cap is for single stage scenario with manual powder drop or when you want to use as stand alone expander (as you plan on doing).  With case activation you should take cap off and set it on such way that drum's handle is at the stop when case is touching bell portion of the PTU.  You do need to use spacer that is included with case activation stem though.  If you want to use cap for secure stop, you can try moving LNL case activation kit one thread down (or up?) on powder measure.  I'm trying to visualize it and might not be correct in my suggestions, but I remember that during testing I was able to setup 32 Long and regular length PTUs on my Lee Turret press with Hornady Powder measure and case activation kit.  LMK what you see please.

AP

AP

Thanks Alex, I was wondering what the extra spacer was for. I'm hoping to use the die as a hard stop for the expander, and avoid the Hornady linkage stop, with the idea that different calibers or expander types could possibly be swapped out without adjustment. But that's down the road a ways.

I set it up and ran 100 rds yesterday. Worked really well. Just a hint of bell on the case and I had no lead shavings on lubed 200's. Not a lot of seating force, which I'm not used to, but we'll see how it works out.

The earlier comment about having multiple setups to avoid adjusting ... I was figuring I'd have a SS die set up for each. The problem with that is swapping the measure back and forth. That requires either swapping the bottom clamp from die to die, and adjusting the position (Sharpie mark is maybe good enough), or having a bottom clamp for the measure on each die. Which might be available from Hornady, or I'd make my own. Or maybe there's a market for another accessory to go with the die and PTU's? Maybe you've got a better idea of the market potential?

I've seen a number of people with a complete measure setup for each option, but that would get really expensive, really fast. So maybe putting a preset die in the press, and dropping the measure on might be a reasonable option.

Search all the fora for reloading equipment sales.  This one is a good one .
https://forum.accurateshooter.com/

Often you can pick up a RCBS Uniflow relatively cheaply ther and they have an almost identical Case activation system and they may fit on top of a Hornady die body.  Don’t be afraid to “Frankenstein” reloading gear.

Good point. Hornady says their CAPD system can only be used on their measure, but I'm fairly sure I read somewhere the hole pattern on the RCBS drum is the same. So maybe the LNL measure is usable on an RCBS die?

Whatever ... I ran a few coated 160's just now. Needed to set the expander down a little bit, and was still getting an occasional case that the bullet wouldn't start in nicely. The feel and sound of the press was a bit different as well. I started checking the clearance on the measure tube in the slot at TDC, and it looked like it was occasionally making contact, guessing a long case. Backed the measure die off a 6th of a turn for clearance, and that seems to have solved the problem. So I think maybe I was having the same problem Val had, the cone in the drop tube closing the case mouth a bit.

Wes,
You caused me to dig our my Hornady setup I have.  Great that Ashley didn't pull trigger on trading it for Dillon's measures!    I sketched very quickly an attachment that would replace Hornady's lower attachment point for case activation kit, and provide for better functionality (i.e. spot for the second spring to even forces on return, hard stop to alleviate force on the drum steam in top position, and more).  However it is a long line shot out as I have toooooooo many things going.  So, folks, please stand by.

However I wanted to confirm, that you have fully functional setup with Single Stage Die and Dillon 45-HTC version PTU in LNL native work flow going without any structural issues, and only minor adjustments are needed when switching type of bullets.

AP

Hi Alex,

I'm still using the SS die with PTU as an expander, position 2. The LNL measure has the Hornady 'powder sleeve', shallow cone face contacting the case mouth, position 3.

I also forgot the lower clamp seats on a shoulder on the die to maintain height as you rotate it. So I only loosened the die ring so I could rotate the whole thing in the LNL bushing. Moved it more than I should have I think. Maybe .1 clearance on the measure stem/drum at the top on some cases.

I sketched up an expander/measure actuator several months ago, where there'd be an adjustment in it somewhere so the measure wouldn't have to be touched at all when changing calibers, expander style, etc. Like a micrometer seater die. Throw the correct PTU in, set the dial, and go. Fading memory suggests there was something really ugly involved, ie, hideously complicated, to dial it in on the die body. Adjustable PTU's looked like a better option ... and easier (maybe even cheaper) to just throw another preset die assy in the press, drop the measure in, and go.

Simple solution is a press for each caliber. Cheaper simple solution is a wall rack full of measures.

https://inlinefabrication.com/collections/inline-rail-wall-mount-organization-system/products/hornady-lnl-powder-measure-dock

I'm not currently of any help doing anything material about it. Somewhat lucky* I was gifted room in the garage for my reloading bench. The machines are a few days drive/few hours flight away right now.

*A couple cases of good wine and whiskey probably helped. I'm not above bribery ;-)

If you add this to the Hornady linkage and use a PTX unit, you can literally “dial in” the expansion.  

Wobbley wrote:If you add this to the Hornady linkage and use a PTX unit, you can literally “dial in” the expansion. 

I misunderstood you, Wes.  I though, you had Single Stage combined with case activation.

Ashley,

Hornady's OEM PTXs and also my own native to LNL platform PTUs are not suited well for loading lead / coated projectiles, - see Steve Lightfoot's comment above.  Hornady's only bells cases, mine created a little cylindrical "pocket" and then bells.  Still better than OEM, but doesn't provide for proper case expansion for the length of the lead / coated bullets.  Wes is using HTC version of my PTU which addresses the above.  This is where his comment about needing almost no force for seating of the bullet comes from. 

Same with Valerie - she uses PTU specific for loading 38 Special WC.  This PTU penetrates case down to 0.615" - 0.625" depth.  And that is where the difference in brass comes from.  Your table clearly shows brass that is specific to 38 WC.  Brass with taper starting at 0.600" mark is what needed.

The part you show would not help with case expansion for lead / coated using OEM PTX or my platform native PTU, even if cases are belled to the size of Liberty Bell.  However this part provides for the hard stop limiting upward range of motion and as such takes pressure off the drum.  I forgot about it, - thank you for the reminder.

AP

Wobbley wrote:If you add this to the Hornady linkage and use a PTX unit, you can literally “dial in” the expansion. 

Yeah, I'm sure that probably works great, and it came with my press. But it's what I'm trying to avoid, ultimately. Same issue as needing multiple dies, keeping track of what's what. Sure would be easier to duplicate than the bottom clamp though.

Or maybe put a teeny micrometer on one end of it? ;-)

Had a little 'vision' of a simpler version, maybe, of the dial type die I mentioned earlier. Need to think that out ... after I recall what it was ...

There were two Remington batches, one from recent Wadcutters and one from 158 LRN factory that were several years old.  Their cylinder lengths were near-as-dammit identical.  My comment was that here is no specific “Wadcutter brass” (ie only used for Wadcutters) and in my admittedly limited sample size I hold my position.  The brass to AVOID is any that is marked “+P” and military.  That is shown.  But I did shoot a decent group with Wadcutters loaded in some of the WCC +P+.

At the least, the wadcutter PTU makes a relatively quick gauge. Size/decap, and expand with it, and throw out the cases that are bulged before priming.

My vision, at this point, is a non-starter. I was thinking of actuating the measure off the shell plate, which of course bypasses the failsafe for a missing case. Duh ...