masters panel discussion

hi, i enjoyed the video's on the masters , very informative and i am now using some of the suggestions. such as blank wall dry firing. area aiming shooting ant blank target. all very helpful! thank you so much for putting it all together for us. but being a equipment junkie, I must ask! what guns do you guys use? cost being no object. i am currently using a bob marvel 22 conversion on a rock island 45 frame. and a Clark 45 with  a kart national match barrel and bushing. currently shooting marksman, but have stepped up my practice time and dry firing thanks to you guys, so what are you using, and when you changed to your current equipment did you see a difference? Thanks for the info! Vin C.

Welllll, does anyone want to break the bad news to him?

Don’t change anything.  

Shoot those pistols well into Expert, maybe Master.

Even worse, don’t bother with the .45 until Expert, maybe Master.

To add insult to injury, some may advise you to not use a red dot until Expert, maybe Master.

Not many folks actually take this advice, but for some reason, the ones that do always end up in Expert, maybe Master.

Even worse, don’t bother with the .45 until Expert, maybe Master.

Totally 100% disagree. I remember back in the day most of the guys that were hardcore 22 shooters (890’s) couldn’t hit broadside of the barn with a 45. Used to smoke’m!
Shoot the hell out of that 45! Try and get a local coach preferably a Master to help you out.
Jon

Some small disagreements here. I think Will might have missed your age. Unlike institutions like banks and lending agencies age does matter here. Keep the red dot. The eyes are going to get worse. Keep shooting the .45 because they are fun. You can even pick up a .45 here that will shoot mouse loads and you can shoot it forever without flinching. Buy a Model 52 and a have a dot added. Everyone needs a 52. They are the most fun hardest to shoot pistol you will ever learn to love. Also look for a 107 High Standard or a A series model 41. Your scores will go up because you will be shooting more. I personally avoid all guns ending in vowels but that is pure personal preference. Oh, and have fun.
Len

Shoot the 22 you have until you consistently can shoot all scoreable shots in slow fire and sustained fire (dot or irons your choice). Then move on to the 45 and do the same thing. Once all your shots are scoreable, work on making them more centered.

Personally my training philosophy is more 45 centric at the moment as the majority of the matches I shoot have a greater bias towards 45.

I'll second the 45 route...l was a 22 shooter mostly and held back on 45 work. I could shoot 880s 22 followed up with 800-820 at best  in CF and 45.

I had veteran competitor friends with 45 s that always smoked me in cf and 45 but complained they couldn't shoot the " candy-ass" 22. I was reversed and couldn't understand why.

I THINK I know why ( and hence post for groupthink) ... the 22 takes finesse. You can damp it with a softer grip, easy wrist and elbow. Less shakes, better fine motor control but at the expense of recoil resistance. Higher velocity of the 22 reduces slung shots from trigger induced motions or barrel time issues

Similar experience between the 45 wadcutter gun and EIC ball with factory hardball. Scores went waaay down on ball sf with the higher recoil.

Where is this masters panel discussion at?

Gentlemen!

There's no fighting in the War Room!

Tim:H11 wrote:Where is this masters panel discussion at?

Here, Jason

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t15462-ask-the-masters-virtual-panel-discussion

Good, better to type something folks disagree with and will then talk about rather than just let this sit here unanswered.

No one wants to be first, but EVERYONE has an opinion after that!  

LOL!

I certainly did not take my own advice.  Who wants to NOT shoot their .45 and get distracted with new pistols, and spend a ton on dots, then buy reloading stuff and obsess over crimp size.  I will do anything to deny that it is my own fault that my scores suck!

I just posted up the some “old sage Chinese kung fu master” to stir up the nest and waited for the replies to start.

I think I know this forum too well.  

OK, here's how I see the "shoot the .22" to whatever score advise, and I give that advise a lot.

First, there is no use to start the .45 until you can actually call your shots.  That means seeing the sights as the gun fires.  Its a lot easier to learn to do that with a .22 and a high Expert or Master level score generally means you can actually call a shot consistently.  Learning how to see, not blink, control the trigger, assume your best stance, learn when to put the gun down, etc. etc., is a lot cheaper and easier with a .22.

Now you have to start on the .45 and it opens up a lot of other issues that are discussed above, recoil, grip, trigger control, etc.; which are to me at a "slightly different" level than with the .22.  However, learning to shoot the .45 well (eventually) will also help bring those .22 scores to High Master levels!

So yea, shoot the .22 a lot and learn how to shoot it well, but realize that the techniques, mindset, attributes that got you to a good .22 score may need even more improvement to shoot your .45 to your full potenital.

It's analogous to understanding the difference in and transition between "training" to "practice" and "competing in a match".  But that's another subject.

CR

The number one thing I agree with Willie on is that the guns the poster is shooting are fine and can carry him all the way up through at minimum expert level. As I was learning this game and coming up the ranks, I stuck with the same pistols and mostly the same loads all the way through. I was determined to make me the variable, not the equipment. Once I found something that worked I spent all my time on me, my technique and all those little things that ultimately really make the difference. I have seen too many people changing guns, changing loads and focusing on all those things and finding themselves stuck in a rut as far as progressing their skills.

With the cost of 22 nowadays, I can not really give the advice to “master the 22 first” and not cringe at least a little.

My approach is to train with both side by side.  Learn the “fundamental” with the 22, then “confirm and reinforce” with the 45.  And for persons of my age... anytime shooting is golden!

Having just completed a 2 year "steep learning curve" to get up to Master I am totally in agreement with CR10X.

I am firmly of the opinion that until you can confidently call most (all) of your shots with a 22 then shooting a bigger gun makes no sense. (OK, I take Wobbley's point that the current peculiar ammo shortage issue might mean that 22 is not necessarily the "cheap" solution). But a decent 22 is just plain easier to shoot than any other caliber.

My Mentor constantly harped on about how a mildly sorted Ruger 22 can get any determined shooter up to at least Master. I believe him. True. But if you are older and are financially comfortable, why bother? Get one of those guns whose name ends in a vowel which LenV hates and be done with it!

After you have sorted out your basic technique and can shoot Master level scores with a decent 22, then comes the serious challenge, shoot a 45 well!

Forget about a CF gun, Model 52, 9mm, 32, whatever! Just shoot the hell out a decent 45 (just like the Ruger story, a mildly tuned SARO will get you to at least Master, for relatively modest cost).

If you read all of the sage advice on this Forum (CR10X and several others are the ones to prioritise) apply yourself and train hard you can get to Master.

Then it gets much harder!

I love people that say they don't flinch shooting a 45 yet nearly all "mortal" shooters shoot substantially better scores with their 22 despite the less forgiving diameter.

I took a roughly 5 year journey from never shooting competition pistol to getting master, many people do it quicker but a lot never make it. I started with a S&W 41 and a Les Baer Concept IV both with iron sights for the first year. I really struggled with the 45 at first. If I could go back and do it again I would have gotten to expert with the 22 to establish the fundamentals then add a 45 to the mix. It can really become a mental battle, the big calibers are fun but at the same time can frustrate you to no end especially if you're trying to drag you ass through a match throwing shots.

One thing to also consider is that the 22, even a Ruger Mk1, is more accurate than almost any 45.  So while you learn to make master with a 22 your fundamentals may not be just “there” when you shoot a less accurate gun.  That’s one reason people shoot their 45s better than a S&W 52.  The 52 will hold the ten ring at 50, on a good day.  A good 45 will nearly hold the X.  So it’s “easier” to get a good score with poor fundamentals with a 22, then the 45 then the 52....

zanemoseley wrote:I love people that say they don't flinch shooting a 45 yet nearly all "mortal" shooters shoot substantially better scores with their 22 despite the less forgiving diameter.

Hello zanemosely,

Some would argue that the substantially better scores are attributed to .22s, comparatively, being more accurate and typically with better triggers than .45s.

Jim

Fifty years ago I was instructed to shoot the High Standard almost exclusively.  Coach was retired Army LtC who was SAFS instructor in the late 50s and also said he learned from Joe Benner.   The second gun Coach had me shoot was the 38 OMM.  I shot that SAO OMM in SF better than I did the HS.  For the 45 he said just shoot the GC some for fun.  For loads Coach let me cast 185s with his equipment.  He said just load 3.4 BE and crimp until you can't push the head into the case.  Really. 

I remember one match back then where I topped the Experts as a Marksman in 22 SF and 22 RF.  (I had to dig out the old Blackington medals to be sure) 

Coach also had connections for surplus ammo* so I was indeed ankle deep in 22 brass.  Not so much in 45 brass.

(*Remington SV white box.  And there was plenty Remington 38 HBWC ammo too.  There was another connection for lots and lots of surplus brown box HB.  Those were the good old days)

Well, as for the "cost of .22 theses days" concept, I would think that someone that didn't have any .22 stocked up or having to find some would have even more of problem getting primers and bullets for reloading these days.  If someone didn't foresee the need to stock up on one side (.22), they probably didn't (or haven't stocked up on the other side (.45).  And I'd probably part with with my .22 stock for someone that needs it rather than primers at this point.

If cost and availability are a problem right now, then just dry fire the hell out of your gun until it breaks and get an air pistol too!  And the prices of some air guns is going through the roof as well.  Have you seen what a FWB 65 is going for on ebay now?   

CR

I shoot very little ammo and dry fire a whole lot these days and am improving over when I spent more time shooting. You don't have to be ankle deep in brass every range visit to get anywhere. 

Perhaps the difference between "training" and "just shooting"

I still spend as much time at the range as before, but as an example. I used a revolver last weekend and loaded each time with five snap caps and one live round. Got a good hour of training in and only shot a dozen rounds. 

Same with the 1911's. Dry fire five or ten times to every live round.

YMMV

spursnguns wrote:

zanemoseley wrote:I love people that say they don't flinch shooting a 45 yet nearly all "mortal" shooters shoot substantially better scores with their 22 despite the less forgiving diameter.

Hello zanemosely,

Some would argue that the substantially better scores are attributed to .22s, comparatively, being more accurate and typically with better triggers than .45s.

Jim

I knew someone would say this. A good 22 will shoot 1" at 50 where a good 45 is 1.5-2". That still wouldn't approach the score differential I see from most shooters.

CR10X wrote: And the prices of some air guns is going through the roof as well.  "Have you seen what a FWB 65 is going for on ebay now?"   

CR

   Geepers, that's getting up there, maybe I should sell mine now.
Stan

Maybe I came into this a little late but can anyone tell me where I can watch the video referred to in this thread?

In the Bullseye Education Library section. See link above!

Dave